The question we have before us from the Divine Governance thread is where man's free will resides within God's divine governance. I reassert that I believe man can make choices. I deny that man can do as he pleases. Only God can do that.
Does God do what He pleases? Yes. (Cf. Psalm 115:3; 135:6; Jonah 1:14; Isaiah 46:10; et al.)
Can anyone stop Him from doing so? No. (Cf. Dan. 4:35; Isa. 14:14-27; 43:13; et al.)
Can God move, turn and/or change the will of man? Yes. (Cf. below)
Does God move, turn and/or change the will of man? I believe this is a main sticking point between a lot of Christians. I assert that God not only can, but does, move, turn, and /or change the will of man -- according to numerous Scriptures, if we take them at their simple and literal meaning.
God changes events.
Many will agree here, at least if we don't push it too far. God is sovereignly absolutely in control of all events that take place in His universe. We can quibble over what He "causes" and what He "allows", but how can any Bible reader deny that God is working out His will in all things?
God was in control of the events of the destruction of Job's possessions, deaths of his children, and debilitation of his body.
Job 1:21 - And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 23:13-14 - But he (God) is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he (God) performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
God was in control in settling Israel in the land of Canaan, even to making it an inhospitable place for others.
Exodus 23:28 - And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
Deuteronomy 7:20 - Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.
Joshua 24:12 - And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.
Psalms 44:1-2 - O God, our fathers have told us, what work thou didst in their days...How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
God was in control of Ahab's death -- He determined the cause, the events and the instrument.
I Kings 22:23 - Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
I Kings 22:34 - And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
(God also kept Jehoshaphat from being killed: II Chron. 18:31 - And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, It is the king of Israel. Therefore they compassed about him to fight: but Jehoshaphat cried out, and the LORD helped him; and God moved them to depart from him.)
God was in control of when and where the Israelites would go into captivity.
Jer. 29:4 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
Ezek. 39:28 - Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
God changes minds.
Many are not so disturbed by God's influence of events, and probably don't meditate too much on the fact that in changing events He changes minds. But what disturbs the human mind is to suppose that it is not free to think and do as it wishes.
God hardened Pharoah's heart against the Jews, that He might deliver Israel and destroy the Egyptians.
Exodus 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
(God said he would harden Pharaoh's heart long before it mentions Pharaoh hardening his heart.)
God turned the heart of the Egyptians against Israel, before and after Moses came.
Psalm 105:25 - He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
Exodus 14:17 - And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
(Egyptians didn't make a free will decision to drown in the Red Sea. They were hardened by God to follow Israel to die in the sea.)
God hardened Sihon's heart and made him obstinate, and then judged him.
Deut 2:30 - But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
The king, whether Pharaoh, Sihon or someone else, in in the Lord's hands. Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Romans 9:18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
God, using Satan, provoked David to number Israel.
II Sam. 24:1 - And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
I Chron. 21:1 - And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
God blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of some of those to whom Isaiah preached, as well as some to whom Jesus preached and preformed miracles.
John 12:40 - He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Isaiah 6:9-10 - And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
God turned the heart of the Assyrian king to favor the people of Israel.
Ezra 6:22 - And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
When we think of God doing as He pleases, we must be careful to not mix in our ideas of human emotions and pleasures. We probably think of pleasure often in the sense of "enjoyment or satisfaction derived from what is to one's liking; gratification; recreation or amusement; sensual gratification." But in reference to God, we should think of it more in the sense of pleasure being "one's will, desire, or choice."
Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
When the Bible says it pleased the Lord to bruise/crucify His Messiah, it is not in the sense that He received some kind of sensual or sadistic gratification, but that He was fulfilling His will from the foundation of the world. The Hebrew word chaphets -- to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with -- is also translated will.
God will do all His pleasure. Let us leave off our humanistic worries about Him somehow violating our free will. He doeth all things well.
Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Psalms 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Psalms 135:6 - Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 43:13 - Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Daniel 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
94 comments:
Brother Vaughn,
I've not had the pleasure of meeting you, but I gather that you are in Texas. Am I correct in my gathering? I live in Marshall. I have been the pastor of two churches in the past, currently I work for myself painting houses.
Anyway, I wanted to say a hearty AMEN! to your post. There is something about the Sweet Sovereignty of God that brings great peace and joy to my soul!
There are two truths that God has burned upon my heart as with a branding iron...
1. He is Sovereign!!
2. He is my daddy!!
In these truths I rejoice, rest, amd relax.
I wanted to add one verse to your exposition, not that it needs any, it is one of my favorites.
“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." (Job 42:2 ESV)
Blessings to you and yours!
James E Alderman
just getting the email folow up
There is something about the Sweet Sovereignty of God that brings great peace and joy to my soul! Amen and amen! Job 42:2 is a good addition. God can do all things whether we know it or not. But, my, the blessing of coming to know it!
Brother Alderman, welcome. Thanks for stopping by and commenting. Yes, I am in Texas, south of Henderson. So not too far away from you. I don't put too many personal details online, but will be glad to give you more information, if you'd like. Just go to my profile and click on my e-mail and shoot me some correspondence.
Thanks again for visiting and commenting.
Question: God is sovereign. There is no question about this. But does that sovereignty include determining who will be saved and who will be lost?
I doubt whether I would be saved to-day had it not been for His sovereign power to convict me and convert me.
The whole purpose of scripture is revealing God's saving grace. Follow through scripture with this theme in mind and you will readily see what God is doing. He chose to work through Israel and then the church. He was constantly calling out His elect and passing by the rest.
Cheers,
Jim
Brother Neal,
I hope you don’t mind me commenting on your question. I am here as a beggar seeking bread, one thirsty seeking water. Let me say up front I don’t pretend to have all the answers neither do I pretend to have it all figured out.
There are those whom the Father has given to the Son; these are referred to in Scripture as the elect, sheep, vessels of mercy, my people and various other terms. Notice for instance the following verses. I’ll not post all the verses due to space.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6 KJV)
There are those that the Father has given to Jesus and “All” of them will come. There is a “seeing” of Jesus that only those who have been taught of the Father can “see”. In this passage those who "see" the Son AND "believe" on him have everlasting life.
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Now here is where our humanness might say God must draw everyone so they will have a choice. The fact is everyone has a choice, but fallen man left to himself will never choose God. Not because he isn’t free to do so but because he will not do so. Man is free to choose, he just makes bad choices.
BUT THE GRACE OF GOD!!
It is written in the prophets “they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” This hearing and learning is in fact a seeing, which Jesus spoke of previously.
Notice what Paul said and then I’ll come back to our passage.
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 4 KJV)
Here the minds of the lost are blinded, they are unable to see. It is God who hath shined the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, the image of God enabling us to see. He gives the light of the knowledge of the glory in the face of Jesus. The lost are in darkness; through preaching Christ Jesus the Lord, God shines the light into the hearts of his chosen enabling them to see (believe).
In verse 63 Jesus says the “spirit gives life the words that I speak are spirit and life”…”But there are some of you that do not believe. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
Those who do not come to Jesus do not come because it has not been given to them of the Father to come.
I wish to close with another verse from John 10 the context is there are Jews asking Jesus if He is the Christ to tell them plainly.
"26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."
Now, I grew up in church being
taught that you become a sheep by believing in Jesus. But Jesus said only the sheep believe. He goes on to speak of how his sheep hear his voice. We must hear and learn from the Father to see. It is the seeing of Jesus with sight given by the Father that enables us to have eternal life.
Brother Neal you asked, “But does that sovereignty include determining who will be saved and who will be lost?”
I would answer this way; all are lost because all have sinned, BUT GOD IN MERCY has chosen to save some.
Christ Is All
James E Alderman
Brothers I apologize fro being so long! Please forgive me.
James
God, in His infinite knowledge, knows who is going to be saved.
Would it be accurate to say that the Father gives those to the Son who He knows will be saved??
Brother, Alderman....I was looking for a yes/no answer to my question. Correct me if I'm wrong...but basically you are saying that you believe in pre-destination (as the Presbyterians do) but you are not willing to say that you do. Correct?
If in God's sovereignty He only convicts certain individuals to be saved, He is surely an unfair God.
I Timothy 4:10 states "...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."
Also we read that the "grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11).
This awareness of God, whether through creation, or the prophets, or the Word...leaves man (any whosoever) with a choice...
to reject or to believe.
God, in His sovereign love and power, presents man with hope and opportunity to humble himself and avail himself to God's grace and forgiveness. But man can choose.
Failure to believe that man can choose leads one to the dangerous philosophy of determinism (with the simple addition of a Deity). This philosophy has more holes than a buckshot blast through a white sheet and ultimately leads to there really being NO choices in life (because every choice and event is determined by a pre-existing factor).
This is a great conversation...and I firmly believe in God's sovereignty, but with the free will of man included in it.
Brother Neal,
I apologize again for being so long. As to your question I thought I did answer it…
Brother Adrian you ask, “But does that sovereignty include determining who will be saved and who will be lost?”
I would answer this way; all are lost because all have sinned, BUT GOD IN MERCY has chosen to save some.
To try to be clearer, God determined who would be saved in that He chose them. So let me answer simply, yes His Sovereignty determines who is saved, the fact that the lost have sinned determines their being lost.
I do not mind at all saying what I believe! (I will not debate or argue) Yet sometimes it is hard (for me at least) to give a yes/no answer. I am not sure exactly how the Presbyterians believe in pre-destination but I believe God determined before those who would be saved (and alot of other good things). I hold an historic Baptist perspective on pre-destination.
You mention God being unfair. To which I would reply with Paul’s words… 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Rom. KJV)
You asked, Would it be accurate to say that the Father gives those to the Son who He knows will be saved?? If this were true His giving would be based upon man’s “willeth” (above verse 16). Man left alone is unable to choose God.
I really don’t wish to go back and forth with Scripture you are probably very familiar with. So, if I may let me ask what do you think of the words of Jesus in my first post?
Great Conversation….
Blessings
James E Alderman
Brother Neal you asked about my belief of pre-destination. This is my belief as stated in the 1689Baptist Confession.
Those of mankind who are predestinated to life, God chose before the foundation of the world was laid, in accordance with His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will. God chose them in Christ for everlasting glory, solely out of His free grace and love, without anything in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him to choose.
They are the words of Jesus, so they are, of course, true. The interpretation of phrases such as "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" must harmonize, however, with scriptures referring to "whosoevers" believing or not believing.
So the answer must be that the Father would only give the Son only those whom He knows will believe or do believe. This seems quite simple to me.
Bro. James, Bro. Robert and whoever else seems to be holding to these Calvinist ideas...I'll ask this question sincerely and without any offense intended....can you really trust and embrace a God who chooses some to be saved and passes by the rest (or leaves them to their own destruction)?
This is not the God that I believe in or would want to believe in.
1689 Confession of Faith.... written by Calvinist Baptists in England (Puritans) to "give formal expression of the Reformed and Protestant Christian faith."
I CHOOSE to put my faith in the Bible on this matter, and not the Puritans.
I guess we should stop going into all the world and preaching the gospel to every creature.....God is already going to choose, I guess. Perhaps then we could have more computer time. It's already pre-destined anyway, right?
Wow. You all have been busy while I've been offline.
Bro. Adrian, before I read everything else I want to address your comment/question. You wrote, "God is sovereign. There is no question about this. But does that sovereignty include determining who will be saved and who will be lost?"
To me the doctrine of God's sovereignty is that He alone is God, creator, ruler and can do as He pleases. It is lawful for Him to do what He will with His own. From that one may infer that He can or does determine who will be saved and who will be lost, but it does not directly teach that one way or the other -- at least not to the extent of limited versus general atonement, which I understand to be the import of your question. Sovereignty means that God can save in whatever way pleases Him -- whether it is by grace or whether He says we must stand on our heads four hours every day. Who can say to Him what are you doing and why are you doing it? But through studying the Scriptures we might find that grace pleases Him and that standing on our heads doesn't. So to find out whether God before the foundation of the earth determined whom He would save and whom He would pass by (or whom He would reprobate), we must study the Scriptures to find out what is His pleasure/purpose.
To me it is a given that He CAN:
Romans 9:18-24 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now this last part will probably not satisfy anyone. It may sound like a cop-out or compromise, but it is where I am spiritually and according to the best light I have on the subject. It is possible to become too wrapped up in the theories of theology and neglect the practical. What we practice is what we believe, regardless of what we write down in our articles of faith, confessions, etc.
Here is what (I think) I know -- God is sovereign. The sovereign God saves by grace alone; Salvation is of the Lord. The sovereign God has commanded His people go and preach the gospel to all people. Go and preach the gospel. Leave the saving to God. It is fine to study and discuss limited versus general atonement, but do so while we preach the gospel. I can't save anyone, but I can preach the gospel and don't even have to have limited versus general figured out to do so. The gospel is how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. If one preaches the gospel of salvation by the grace of the Lord, stops there and doesn't try to cajole or coerce, pressure, "pyschologize" or philosophize others into salvation, but leaves the work up to God, I can extend my hand of agreement.
Brother Adrian, after posting the above I went back and read all the comments and will add the following to what I just posted. I will place your thoughts in italics and respond.
You wrote, "Bro. James, Bro. Robert and whoever else seems to be holding to these Calvinist ideas..."
Brother Adrian, I've leave it to you to decide what you wish to call my ideas as long as you are satisfied with it. I do not attach the name Calvinism to what I believe. If it is, then so be it. If you think it is, then so be that as well.
I'll ask this question sincerely and without any offense intended....can you really trust and embrace a God who chooses some to be saved and passes by the rest (or leaves them to their own destruction)? This is not the God that I believe in or would want to believe in.
I am satisfied with the sincerity of your question and hope you will not doubt the sincerity of my answer. First, you will notice my answer above leaves me doubtful of quibbling over such details. Second, I would say YES, if I determine that is the God of the Bible and what the Bible teaches about Him. We cannot predetermine what God we want to believe in and then look for Him, but we must accept God as He is revealed in the Bible.
I guess we should stop going into all the world and preaching the gospel to every creature.....God is already going to choose, I guess.
Why should we stop? Whatever God has chosen to do, it is plain and simple that He has commanded us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature -- and all the Calvinistic and Arminian arguments, and positions in between the two, will not change that fact. Should we perhaps not be more upset with the sons who say, father I will go work in thy vineyard and then do not? Is it somehow magical in determining our fellowship if one will just affirm "whosoever will" and then it's OK to sit down and preach to no one?
I'm not so concerned about which side of the exact soteriology one comes out on. But from what I read in the Bible I have had to abandon my so-called sense of "fairness" and believe that God does as He pleases and sometimes it means He determines what people think and do. Unless we are ready to believe that God COULD choose whomsoever He would, whether He does so or not, I believe we lack just that much of accepting the true sovereignty of God.
I am afraid that some of what I write may come across as hard in this cold hard electronic format, and I hope you will understand it is meant sincerely and without any offense.
I'd like to state a few things.
#1. Believing God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost, with His control and power being the only deciding factor is against the character of the God of the Bible. If He is all sovereign, which we believe He is; and if He has choice over who will be born and who will be saved, which we believe He does; and if He chooses who is saved and who is lost, which some of you believe He does, then by deductive reasoning with the brains God has given us, we conclude what? God created some not just KNOWING they would go to Hell, but because He created them without the purpose of choosing them for salvation, He created them for the PURPOSE of going to Hell.
#2. If God created some (not just foreknowing, but predetermining) they would go to Hell, then He did not create them for the purpose of fellowship since He alone has the choice to make them fellowship. This god then, who created certain men without the intent of fellowship, but rather with the intent of them going to Hell, is a God who creates souls to punish.
#3. If this is the case, this god then acts outside of the character of the Biblical God who offers salvation to "all who will believe", to "whosoever shall call", who is the "Savior to all" men, specially those who believe. This god did not create all men for fellowship with Him. This god is truly and unjust god. Some of you claim this to be the case, but then say He isn't unjust b/c we don't know His reasoning. Some of you hide behind the phrase "God can do whatever He wants, and it is righteousness, because He is God." The problem is this god some of you have described acts against the character and nature of the Biblical one true God. The God who loves all, died for ALL sins, nailed the law to the cross, and condemns ONLY based upon rejecting/blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
#4 and final. You say only those who the Father draws can come to Him. You are correct. Most say the "Holy Spirit" has to convict men to be saved in order for this to happen. (I wish someone would find one scripture proving this about the Holy Spirit.) Fine. The question isn't does God convict men. The question is how? The answer is that the Bible is the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6). The answer is that the Word prospers and rains upon all men. The answer is that all men who see the general revelation of God (the handiwork of God displayed in the Heavens) are convicted that there is a God, and they should search Him. The conviction is that once these people search out this God, they eventually come across His gospel (since He promised those who search with their whole hearts will find Him), and then they will be convicted by the words of Truth. They will then accept or reject the Truth. This is the drawing.
Biblically, we find God HAS drawn ALL men, not some. He does not pick and choose who He will draw. He has made it the destiny of ALL men to be saved. Whether or not they reject this destiny is up to them. He has predestinated this destiny.
"John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
To sum up my entire argument, the God of the Bible is a just and righteous God who has determined all men should be saved. This is His will. He is the God of the Bible who created men for the purpose of fellowship with Him. He wants ALL men to be saved so they can fellowship with Him. This is how men love Him, by choice. Love cannot be forced, it is a choice. This is how men are friends of Him. Friendship is a choice, it cannot be forced. This is how men fellowship with Him. Fellowship is a choice, it cannot be forced. The entire reason God created mankind is to choose Him. If He takes away the choice, He acts against the very reason He created man.
I used the "unfair God" argument myself in siding against the Calvinist teachings. I now understand that to be untrue.
In John 3, Jesus, himself taught that He came not to condemn the world, but to save it. The world He came into was already condemned. I'm sure we all believe in the doctrine of original sin. God is good because none of should go to Heaven. Now check this out.
God is not treating anyone unfairly. Those He passes over will get justice (righlty so), and those He elects gets mercy (which by definition is not justice). No one receives injustice which would be a wrongful act. Read Romans 9 on the soveriegnty of God.
As to the not going into the world, Read Romans 10. It's the preaching of the gospel that fuels God's redemptive plan. We're commanded to preach the gospel. Why? First, because it's God who commands it. Secondly, it's again through the foolishness of preaching the gospel that people are saved.
Hope this helps.
Bro. Robert, I have known you for a number of years, yet I have seldom if ever discussed Bible issues with you. Honestly, I am shocked that you believe in pre-destination (cloaked with the phrase "sovereignty of God") as if God would PURPOSELY condemn and eternally punish those who He determines to "pass by."
The excerpt below is from Wikipedia and generally describes one point of Calvinism. If you agree to the quote below, we really have nothing left to discuss.
"Calvinism stresses the complete ruin of humanity's ethical nature against a backdrop of the sovereign grace of God in salvation. It teaches that fallen people are morally and spiritually unable to follow God or escape their condemnation before him. It is seen as the work of God (divine intervention) in which God changes their unwilling hearts from rebellion to willing obedience.
In this view, all people are entirely at the mercy of God, who would be just in condemning all people for their sins, but who has chosen to be merciful to some. One person is saved while another is condemned, not because of a foreseen willingness, faith, or any other virtue in the first person, but because God sovereignly chose to have mercy on them. Although the person must believe the gospel and respond to be saved, this obedience of faith is God's gift, and thus God completely and sovereignly accomplishes the salvation of sinners."
God, in His sovereignty, will NEVER be unjust or unfair. Purposely condemning a soul IS being unjust and unfair.
Bro. Jason, you state "God is not treating anyone unfairly. Those He passes over will get justice (righlty so)..."
If God passes over them (not dealing with them in any way) how can you say that he is not treating anyone unfairly?
Common sense tells you that I, as a teacher, punching one kid in class for talking (sin) and giving candy to another kid for talking (sin) am an example of an unfair teacher. And I'm correct in doing so because I'm sovereign?????
If this is anyone's God, they can have Him.
This thread was written in connection with developing more fully some thoughts about God's divine governance in another thread. In it I undertook to show that regardless of what one believes about man's "free will" it is clearly and plainly written in certain places of Scripture that God made or caused what certain people thought or did. I do not think any of the texts I used made reference to spiritual salvation and yet I believe every respondent has discussed it from that angle. Hence it seems to have become a referendum on general versus limited atonement -- perhaps because of what the readers see as the implications of God being able to do as He pleases in regards to thoughts, events and outcomes. We can continue to discuss the issue of salvation, but first I want to take our thoughts back to my original point. To do so I will pick one incident/text that I referenced and ask you all to actually comment on it.
In the book of Numbers God records Israel coming to the land of the Amorites. They sent messengers to Sihon the king asking to be allowed to pass through thy land: they would go straight through and not get off the main highway. Sihon would not give permission for Israel to pass through his country but rather gathered his people together to fight against Israel.
In a divine commentary on this incident we are told: "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. (Deut 2:30)" Do you believe it? Is it so? The reason Sihon did not allow the Israelites to pass through his land peacefully is because God hardened him and made him obstinate. The end of this was to judge him and give his land to the people of Israel.
So I ask you, do you believe the Bible as it is literally recorded here? Did God actually harden Sihon's spirit and make his heart obstinate, or do we need to shave it here and there to make it fit our idea of free will and fairness? Is it wrong because it is not fair, or must it right because God did it?
Bro. Adrian,
I can say that God is not being unfair because everyone deserves hell, and the mere fact that God would choose to exercise mercy on anyone's behalf is incredible. Again, being that all are already under condemnation for sin; those passed over will receive justice. Those HE elects receive mercy. No one receives injustice.
Your example of punching verses/ giving candy to kids is a gross misunderstanding of this teaching. YOU are not God. Your reaction to the student would be considered extreme by most sciety's standards. Sinning against a holy God and showing you disrespect in a classroom aren't even in the same ball park. You can't our understanding of "fair" and apply that standard to God. Why? WE are fallible human beings with limited knowledge. God is all-knowing. Also, I don't know that it is even a question of fairness. We might think it is, but then again, we're not God. REad Romans 9.
I have started a new thread to focus on one issue, in case y'all don't want to slow down and discuss it on this comment thread. See it at the link above.
If we take this discussion off the level of salvation and discuss another of God's choices, do you feel as strongly about fairness? I believe you readers would admit that God chose Israel and passed by all the other nations. Did He or did He not? In doing so was He unjust or unfair? Why or why not?
If we default to foreknowledge instead of predestination, we still have the same problem -- even if we think we can feel better about it. If God created some foreknowing all along that they would go to Hell, then He did not create them for the purpose of fellowship since He knows they never will fellowship. This god then, who created certain men without the intent of fellowship, but rather with the intent of them going to Hell (because He knew they would), is a God who creates souls to punish because He knew He would before He created them. This god did not create all men for fellowship with Him. This god is truly an unjust god. If not, why not, according to your own words?
Brother James, I am sure you know what you believe, but your words seem inconsistent. You say Jesus died for ALL sins. Did He die for the sin of unbelief? If not, did He die for all sins? If so, will unbelievers be saved? Do you believe He died to save all men, or that He died to save all who will believe? If you answer the first, that is universal salvation. If you answer the second, then He did not actually die to save all men, but only died to make salvation a possibility fo all. You further write, "He has made it the destiny of ALL men to be saved. Whether or not they reject this destiny is up to them. He has predestinated this destiny." If God has predestinated this destiny, then it will in fact happen. Yet you say it possibly will not happen. Perhaps you mean that He made it the destiny of all men that they might possibly be saved?
There is no reason to hide behind the phrase "God can do whatever He wants, and it is righteousness, because He is God." There is nothing to hide. Is sending a lying spirit to the prophets of Ahab an act against the character and nature of the Biblical one true God? Is giving a young woman a child of the Holy Ghost without asking her permission an act against the character and nature of the Biblical one true God? On some other level you might wish to say these acts were wrong. But if God did them, are they? If we think they are, do we possibly have a misunderstanding of God?
Brother Adrian, in all the fluff and stuff, did you find my answer to your question?
AN: "But does [God's] sovereignty include determining who will be saved and who will be lost?"
RV: "It does not directly teach that one way or the other." [Note: I answer that in the context I understand you asked it. I assume you also believe that in some sense God determines who will be saved and who will be lost -- e.g. God determined believers will be saved and unbelievers will be lost. Limited atonement is not inherent in sovereignty, in my opinion.]
I want to make sure that wasn't buried in all the rest of the discussion, because that was what you asked initially. And in case you feel we really have nothing left to discuss (I wouldn't agree with that assessment), there is the answer to your question.
You feel that I believe in predestination cloaked with the phrase "sovereignty of God". There is no cloak. Yes, I do believe in predestination, and I hope you do as well. Surely we agree that the Bible teaches some form of it, whether we agree on the details or not. But the sovereignty of God is not predestination, and predestination is not sovereignty. The sovereignty of God is supreme and independent power, His absolute right to do all things according to His own good pleasure. Predestination is a determining before, God's purpose determined long before it is ever brought to pass.
I have given my answer already about Calvinism, and I haven't changed. If I have garbled it so that is not understandable, I will try to clarify.
Calvinism is a theological construct that emphasizes certain things about the biblical doctrine of salvation, while Arminianism is one that emphasizes certain different things about the biblical doctrine of salvation. There are variations in between the two. I think we all are mature enough to realize that there are verses and contexts in the Bible that seem to teach that Jesus atoned for the sins of some men only, while there are others that seem to teach that Jesus paid for the sins of all. My theme is not to prove one systematic theology over the other. My theme in these posts has been to show that God CAN do as He pleases, that there are definitely places in the Bible where He has done as He pleases in a way that is generally unacceptable even to the average Christian, and that accepting the sovereignty of God means throwing out ALL our theological constructs -- from Calvinism to Arminianism -- to simply say that where I find God has done as He pleased then I must change my thinking. IF He did choose some and reprobate others, then that is right. IF He did choose all and make a sincere offer, then that is right. We don't approach God with our preconceived ideas of who He is and make Him fit those. We must accept who He is.
The link above about Mary doesn't seem to work. Try this.
Typed a thunderous response....internet went down, lost it. Ever had one of those moments? I'll be brief.
Bro. Robert, I acknowledge that God turns hearts, hardens hearts, changes minds, etc. The scripture is clear on this. Bro. Alderman's comments and my responses led us down the predestination road, which is not altogether unrelated to your post.
Yes, you answered my question with "one may infer that He can or does determine who will be saved and who will be lost, but it does not directly teach that one way or the other -- " You seem to clearly be saying that you believe in or allow for the probability that God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost.
I respect you, but I disagree and consider this belief heresy as do the majority of regular Baptists.
(not that a majority ever makes something right of course)
Bro. Jason,
I'm quite aware of the fact that I am not God. But I am expected to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and to mature in the faith. This should lead me to know God better...His plan, His Word, His person.
You say, "You can't (?) our understanding of "fair" and apply that standard to God." You are incorrect. God's Spirit will help us understand what is fair, what is just, what is right, what is wrong, etc. I don't have to be all-knowing to understand what fair is.
Also, within your belief system (God issuing justice to some and mercy to others), how can you ever know where you stand??
Only God knows which camp you fall into. Not you. Because you have no say-so in the matter. So with regards to salvation, I say to you, "Good luck."
My regret in this post is that I did not use scripture. But I am curious how Calvinists and Hyper-Calvinists explain John 3:16.
An explanation then would take care of all the other "whosoevers" and "whosoever will" verses in the scripture.
And please don't practice duplicity (as has already been done) by claiming that man has free will but that God predetermines also.
One other thought, mainly for Bro. Jason: who exactly is being "passed over" for mercy?
Titus 2:11 "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men"
Your "passing over" by God (for some) would necessarily make this verse a lie.
Ok. Sounds like it's getting ugly. Didn't intend that. I know where I stand with God. I know I'm His. Appreciate the good luck, however I don't believe in luck. Sorry,it you were offended Bro. Adrian. It's hard to communicate the heart of delivery in my typing. LIke I said from the beginning, I consider this an open-handed issue. No need to divide over it.
I'm very secure in my beliefs and I'll leave it at that. Bro. Adrian I wish you the very best in your ministry. Keep preachin'!
Not trying to be ugly, brother. You implied that I thought I was God. "YOU are not God."
So I figured it would be FAIR to point out that you cannot know if you are saved (only God does, based on your beliefs).
Thanks for the kind wishes...God bless..
Jason, sorry for being impolite. I forgot to welcome you as a first time contributor to this blog. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
I want to address the "sense of fairness" a bit more. Though God through His Spirit and His word teaches about justice and right, I nevertheless think our sense of "fairness" is not always based on that. Sometimes it may be based on how we feel. Is it fair that God would choose some and not others? Is it fair that He would create some that He knew would not "accept" salvation and knowing He would punish them eternally? Is it fair that a sister of mine died at birth with a sure ticket to heaven, while I had to take my chances to believe or not? Is it fair that I was born in a deacon's home in a Missionary Baptist church where the gospel was preached and some down the road were born in the home of a rebellious God-hater? Is it fair that we are born in a country when the gospel is widely disseminated, while thousands of others have been born in dark regions where the gospel was not sounded? What is fair? Many would claim some or all of these situations are not fair. I think of Brother James posts above and wonder if he would think I was fair if I put him in a burning building and gave him a chance to get out, even though I knew all along that he would not?
Being a heretic already, I will trot out a little more to disagree with everyone. While I don't agree with Bro. Adrian that one cannot know one's salvation if it was predetermined by God -- e.g. God could choose to reveal it to you in our hearts crying "Abba Father" -- and while I believe there is a Bible teaching of assurance of salvation, yet I believe we cannot have absolute assurance of salvation, because we are not omniscient (iow, the simple fact we can be wrong).
Yes, I under the "thunderous response...moments". I had one of those Sunday afternoon. Although my response was more long and incoherent and rambling than thunderous, the electricity went off and I lost everything I typed. (The thread was probably better for it!)
Perhaps I seemed like I was chiding everyone for discussing salvation re predestination. I guess I was a little frustrated that no one seemed to want to discuss what I thought I wanted to discuss. This has nevertheless been an interesting discussion, though possibly not too fruitful. Also I hope that didn't come out wrong, Bro. Adrian, about answering your question. That was one of the main intents of my second post, and I just wanted to be sure it didn't get lost in the shuffle.
You are correct when you write that I allow for the probability that God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost. That is one of the points I wish to make. I don't see how one can get around the "probability" when reading Romans 9, especially verses 18-24 (and especially What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory). It is my opinion that until we admit that God CAN save however He pleases, we lack that much accepting God as sovereign. After we accept the fact that He is sovereign, then we can have a basis on which to discuss what He pleases.
As to the majority of regular Baptists considering this belief heresy, I accept it for the sake of argument and assume that is probably correct. A problem for Landmarkers then becomes the fact that the majority of regular Baptist used to be heretics, and we are descended from them. What does that make us? Heretics?
(That's all I have time for at the moment; will try to get back later.)
To anyone interested, go to www.desiringgod.org. Click on the media resources tab. Look to the left and find most popular and click that. Then about 3 posts or more down is a post entitled something to the effedt of " 5 things we believe about Calvinism". If you print it out it's about 35 pages, but worth the ink and the read. It's scripture saturated and well thought out. Give it a read and let me know what you think. R.L. thanks for letting me share my toughts.
Friends, you keep going to a few select verses (Romans 9, John 10) attempting to make limited atonement and predestination stand up and walk. I wonder in John 10 who the Father “gives to the Son?” Could it be the ones who have repented and placed their faith in Jesus, which harmonizes with the gospel plan of salvation in hundreds of scriptures?
I wonder who God “hardeneth” in Romans 9? Could it be the ones who have ultimately rejected the Holy Ghost and who God is no longer dealing with?
If God predetermines who will be saved and who will be lost, how many scriptures would have to be lying to us?
How about I Timothy 2:3,4 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
How about II Peter 3:9 where the Lord is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
How about John 3:16 “For God so loved the WORLD....”
How about I John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
How about Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
How about literally hundreds of other scriptures that proclaim God's love for all mankind, His desire that ALL be saved, His grace appearing to all men, and His grief that men reject Him?
How about seeing election as not a guarantee of salvation but rather a guarantee of salvation by grace based on the individual's faith in Jesus Christ's death for the forgiveness of sin and faith in His resurrection for the giving of life through the receiving of the Holy Spirit?
How about not misinterpreting a few verses, and believing those which plainly teach that man has a free will and God expects man to exercise that free will in loving and trusting Him? The following verses are just a few that illustrate this point:
Deut.30:11
Deut.30:15
John 14:15
John 15:7
I Timothy 6:12
Maybe I'm more comfortable believing hundreds of verses and then attempting to understand & harmonize a few, than building a doctrine on a few, and dismissing hundreds. The churches of Christ are good at this....building false doctrine on a few verses that perhaps should be harmonized or clarified with the rest of the Bible.
Is God sovereign? Amen. Within that sovereignty, will He violate His character or His Word? No way. Praise God for His love, His concern for all mankind, and His divine plan wherein any WHOSOEVER can be saved.
First, I will say (and I know most will snuff up their noses at it) that I have a Biblical answer to EVERY single question, support, scripture out of context, etc that appears to support the Calvinistic mind-set that has been posed on this site, ALL those I've read, and ALL those I've been posed. Here's why you snuff up your noses. I'm not going to waste the time of doing so. If someone truly wants to list an entire set of reasons they believe God chooses some to salvation, then yes, I will discuss it with you. For the majority of those on a blog, the minds are closed and there is not enough bandwidth (no matter how fast I type) to cover all the issues, and then sub issues, and then mini-sub issues, and all other rabbits that spring up in the discussions.
With that said, I WILL answer Brother R.L. since he asked me a few questions intended just for me.
He stated, "Brother James, I am sure you know what you believe, but your words seem inconsistent. You say Jesus died for ALL sins. Did He die for the sin of unbelief... ?"
He died for all sins, except the one the Bible states cannot be pardoned, the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (blasphemy meaning in the Greek and English 1828 a speaking or more specifically an acting out against). The Holy Spirit convicts us with God's Word to be saved. If we act out against this conviction, we take part in the condemnation that belongs to those who reject Christ (John 3:18.) By the way, somebody mentioned all are condemned to prove Calvinism, but left out the fact that John 3:18 shows only those who reject Christ are condemned. We can of course reject Him at the beginning time we are confronted with the fact there is a God, Whom we can seek out, or we can reject Him at the point of hearing the gospel. The Bible also states anyone who seeks Him with their whole heart WILL find Him.
Now, another question posed to me... "If so, will unbelievers be saved?" The Bible's answer is yes, they are saved from all their sins. They go to Hell because they reject Christ, not b/c of their sins.
"Do you believe He died to save all men, or that He died to save all who will believe?" He is the Savior to ALL men, especially those who believe the Bible says. He did save all men from their sins. The only sin, again, that is not forgiven at the cross is rejecting the Son.
You said, "If God has predestinated this destiny, then it will in fact happen. Yet you say it possibly will not happen."
You say this because you have a limited understanding of destiny.
One definition of destiny deals with "determined ultimate fate" which we hear most often in today's society by those who believe in "fate". The other, however, is that which is appointed, or ordained. You can appoint, or ordain your son to walk, and He doesn't. You can whoop Him, beat Him, do whatever you want to Him, and He still chooses not to. You have the option of grabbing his legs and moving them, or putting them in some kind of machine and forcing him to walk, but you will stop shy of grabbing his hands and legs, and forcing him to do it if you want Him to choose it. The truth is, God wants us to CHOOSE Him. This CHOOSING God is 1 million times more prevalent in Scriptures (faith, belief, believing, calling, whosoever, any, all, etc.) than the idea He chooses for them. Calvinistic mind-sets come from twisting certain scriptures, and then building up a stronghold of supposed human logic. Once inside that stronghold, one will rarely not listen to each and every argument to actually reason the Scriptures against what they believe.
Each time a new argument is brought to my attention, or an old one with new information, I honestly try to compare it with what I already believe I know. It is an honest trial, and sometimes my mind changes. I've never met a Calvinist in person who will listen and actually discuss each point I've made. They just get frustrated and run off to some example, or logic. This is why I will not debate all the things I've seen here. This is why I only answer the questions I've been posed directly.
God created ALL men with the destiny of choosing Him, and choosing Him in salvation. If He forced us to do so, we would not be choosing Him, therefore going against everything He created us for. The foreknowledge of those who choose Hell does not change anything. It would be an impossibility to create a mankind that would all choose Him of their free will. That is the very nature of free will. Men cannot be friends of God without choosing so. Friendship requires choice. Men cannot fellowship with God without choice. Fellowship requires choice. These are the natures of the laws God has set based upon the character that is inherent in Him. He will not, and dare I say can not, act outside of Who He is. And yes, He is still sovereign and all powerful.
Brother Adrian, I believe your "literally hundreds of scriptures" versus "a few select verses" is an exaggeration of the matter. Those on both sides who debate limited versus general atonement bring many verses of scripture into the debate, regardless of what may have been mentioned here. I will leave that debate to those of you who are trying to debate it, and forge on with trying to discuss what I started with, God's governance and the sovereignty of God.
In the "God's divine governance" post I undertook to show that regardless of what one believes about man's "free will" it is clearly and plainly written in certain places of Scripture that God made, caused or changed what certain people thought or did (in other words, they didn't do it because of free will or free choice). You have discussed free will and agreed with the sovereignty of God. I'm not sure you defined either, but I may have missed it. I would be especially interested in how you define "free will" and how you see it to be consistent with those cases you agreed the scripture is clear on God turning hearts, hardening hearts, and changing minds.
My definition is that man can make choices within his nature and is only free to that extent. IMO, God is the only one who has a free will. His will is constrained by nothing other than Himself. Every one and everything else operates inside the circle of His will. Anyone who wishes to let his mind run amok will eventually run up against an occasion that proves to him (or should) that his will is not free -- he cannot choose outside his nature, God's laws, etc. Try jumping out a window and see if you can fly, just because you will it. He might even find he is not free to choose when he runs up on a fellow who is bigger and meaner than he is. I guess we can always be like little Johnny whose mother made him sit but claimed he was standing up on the inside. Maybe so with mother, but when God gets through with us, I don't think any are "standing up on the inside".
God said to Pharaoh I raised you up to show my power and there was nothing Pharaoh could do to change that, free will or not. You wondered "who God 'hardeneth' in Romans 9?" In context it says nothing about those who have ultimately rejected the Holy Ghost and who God is no longer dealing with. In context first it is Pharaoh, who God prophesied He would harden and did harden long before Pharaoh "ultimately rejected" anything, as far as I can tell. Second in context it is "whom He will" (v. 18). God hardened Sihon's heart, made him obstinate, and judged him. We can debate about whether he had ultimately rejected something or not, but it is a simple fact that when God did it Sihon had no choice. Eli's sons were not free to hearken to their father, because the Lord had determined to slay them (II. Sam. 2:25). Nebuchadnezzar was not free to do what he wanted when God sent him to the pasture like an animal (Dan. 4:28-35). We cannot by our free will decide to open what God has shut or shut what God has opened (Rev. 3:7).
You are absolutely correct that God will not violate His character or His Word. AND when we read in the inspired word that God undertook some course of action or declared something, we can be guaranteed that He did not violate His character or His Word. However baffled I may be in trying to reconcile that God cannot lie and that He sent a lying spirit to the prophets of Ahab, I can nevertheless be confident that He did not violate anything in Himself. Who will dare say that He did?
When you started your sentence with "Maybe I'm more comfortable believing..." you may have hit on a sad commentary of how many of us decide what we believe.
Bro. JamesCharles, to be brief, as the 1 o'clock hour approaches:
You wrote, "Now, another question posed to me... 'If so, will unbelievers be saved?' The Bible's answer is yes, they are saved from all their sins. They go to Hell because they reject Christ, not b/c of their sins."
Is rejecting Christ not a sin?
You wrote, "This is why I will not debate all the things I've seen here. This is why I only answer the questions I've been posed directly." I will pose the following directly to you, if you don't mind:
In a divine commentary on Numbers 21, we are told: "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. (Deut 2:30)" Do you believe it? Is it so? The reason Sihon did not allow the Israelites to pass through his land peacefully is because God hardened him and made him obstinate. The end of this was to judge him and give his land to the people of Israel.
Bro. Robert, I'll address the most personally offensive part of your comments first:
You stated "When you started your sentence with 'Maybe I'm more comfortable believing...' you may have hit on a sad commentary of how many of us decide what we believe."
I'll complete my statement for you that you left out with confidence : "Maybe I'm more comfortable believing hundreds of verses and then attempting to understand & harmonize a few, than building a doctrine on a few, and dismissing hundreds."
You see, my "comfort level" comes from having hundreds of scriptures to believe in, not in just deciding what I want to believe.
But perhaps you didn't read the rest of the sentence or take to heart the verses I shared.
You also state "I will leave that debate to those who are trying to debate it," yet you seem pretty involved brother.
I know you want to focus on how God would turn the heart of some unGodly King or harden the Pharoah's heart in order to accomplish His will...but who does not agree with you on this?
What we are discussing, it seems, is the illogical and unscriptural jump that Calvinists make to think that just because God works in and through people, that He necessarily determines their eternal status.
You are interested in how I would define "free will?" For what purpose? To debate more? Or to really understand what free will is?
Read the scriptures I gave concerning free will and allow God to reveal to you what it is. In doing so, you will see that, with regards to salvation, man has free will. (This probably won't be beneficial for you, though, since you have already determined that man does not really have free will. It would be hard for you to define something that you don't believe exists, I would think)
If the Bible won't convince you of man's overall free will (especially with regards to salvation) then maybe the movie "Bruce Almighty" will, I don't know.
I'm waiting on you or anyone else to comment on the "whosoevers" of the Bible and to address and dismiss the hundreds of scriptures which plainly teach that God's will is for all to be saved.
What a joke to say that this mountain of scripture is an exaggeration of the issue.
"Back to you, brothers.."
Brother, I am sorry you find that personally offensive. I stand by that generic statement as made and intended. I did not place you in that category, but I can see how it came across that way. If you don't feel you fit into that category then good for you.
"I know you want to focus on how God would turn the heart of some unGodly King or harden the Pharoah's heart in order to accomplish His will...but who does not agree with you on this?" Evidently quite a few. For one example, Davy Hobson on your thread.
"You are interested in how I would define 'free will'? For what purpose? To debate more? Or to really understand what free will is?" To understand what you mean and how you reconcile free will with the occasions where you seem to say you agree that God changed wills. Maybe you are not agreeing with that. If not, maybe add your name to this list with Davy above. I do notice you inset the word "overall" in front of "free will".
"I'm waiting on you or anyone else to comment on the 'whosoevers' of the Bible..." Perhaps I will start a thread on that sometime and discuss it. But here I didn't and do not intend to more than peripherally with what I am trying to discuss. If anyone else wants to they are quite welcome.
Brother RL, I am not in any way trying to seem rude. I want to say that if you read my entire post and kept my statement in that context, you'd see I believe "rejecting Christ" is a sin, and the only unforgiven/unpardonable sin. So when I said people go to Hell not for their sins (from which they are saved) but for rejecting Christ, obviously that ONE sin is what sends them to Hell, the ONE sin that could not be forgiven or pardoned on the cross since it would violate man's choosing God, and therefore violate the entire reason God created man.
Concerning the rest you stated, "
'But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. (Deut 2:30)' Do you believe it..."
Again, I don't want to be rude, but this is one of those rabbit chases to which I was referring. Instead of addressing the main issue and the heart of the matter (God's creation of man, his reason therefore, and the overwhelming majority of free will exercised by all of God's people throughout scripture and their choices to sin throughout life including Peter, Paul, Moses, Abraham, etc.), we throw out one supposed example of a verse that cannot be answered until one understands the heart of the issue. If you believe in the Calvin mind-set, you believe God forced this man to believe the way He did. I do not due to the Scripture's emphasis on man's free will all throughout. Then with a few verses here and there that may APPEAR to contradict the rest of those verses like the one you give, in order to follow through on the rest of my belief that God's Word does not contradict itself, I must find an answer stating no, God did not force this man's heart to harden. He "hardened" his spirit, but how? Did God force it upon him against his own free will? It doesn't say. So it is mere speculation on your part to assume so. We can JUST as easily (and without contradicting the numerous and plenty in-context Scriptures that teach free will of man) believe God followed through on something the man already had decided or wanted. The same with Egypt's king.
I know you'll say "you have no proof", but that is because my proof does not lie in one verse or two, it lies in the majority of Scripture and the heart of the issue.
"I must find an answer stating no, God did not force this man's heart to harden." I think I can add you to the list answering Bro. Adrian's question "who does not agree with you on this?"
Brother, I don't take anything you said as rude, and neither do I intend to be. But putting together the whole Bible is not a rabbit chase, and we cannot throw out one "supposed example" of a verse (especially since it is an inspired verse). It doesn't take a "the Calvin mind-set" to understand that God hardened Sihon's spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order that he might deliver him into Israel's hand. That comes right out of the text. Now we both believe that we compare Scripture with Scripture, but I guess where I stand in between the Calvinist Baptists on one end and you free will Baptists on the other is that I don't have to have everything tied up in a nice pretty knot with all the kinks worked out to believe it.
We can go back and forth on who is speculating about what. As you say, we can believe God followed through on something the man already had decided or wanted (I obviously can't believe it "JUST as easily" as you can). But we have to read it into the text to find it. And it doesn't really make much sense when we read it in. (And, yes, the "non-whosoever" interpretations of some "whosoever" verses also seem to have to be brought along to the text). The text states that God did this for a reason, yet there was no reason for God to do it if Sihon did it (or was going to do it) himself. It is meaningless to say God hardened his heart if He didn't. Same with Pharaoh, etc., etc.
This discussion has been beneficial to me. I usually don't comment so much, but it has been time well spent. I have been strengthened in my Bible beliefs and I am more aware of the unreasonable and unscriptural line of thinking of proponents of predestination.
I have another question, though...
Will those who believe that God determines who will be saved and who will be lost stop praying for their lost friends and loved ones?
After all, you are wasting your time. In your belief system, God has already determined this and there is nothing you can do to alter His will. I would imagine that would leave a preacher or any Christian with a burden for the lost to live in a sad and depressed state.
Brother Adrian, if this thread has been beneficial for you in any way, I am glad for it. I would caution you, though, not to take my thoughts as representative of much of anyone else's thinking about predestination -- or anything else.
I tweaked your question a bit to demonstrate there are two sides of a coin.
"Will those who believe that God does not determine who will be saved and who will be lost stop praying for their lost friends and loved ones?
"After all, you are wasting your time. In your belief system, God has left it up to their free will and there is nothing He can do to alter their will. I would imagine that would leave a preacher or any Christian with a burden for the lost to live in a sad and depressed state."
Brother RL, my point was to show that either way you interpret that verse, you have to read something into it based upon previous beliefs. It is why said "examples" are useless until you find which scriptures hit the heart of the issue. If some scriptures do hit the heart of the issue with no way around them at all, and the majority of Scripture directly addressing the subject does the same, then all other scriptures MUST harmonize. This is why there is a "pretty" tight little knot. God's Word is perfectly cohesive and in total harmony with itself. If I find one or two examples that seem or appear to contradict the overwhelming majority, I am obviously not seeing the verses correctly.
And as to the way my mind works, the day I find out the Word of God isn't completely in harmony with itself or there are contradictions is the day I quit believing in the Bible's God. Of course, that won't happen, since the Word is truth.
Yes, Bro. Robert, I can and do pray for lost souls because I believe in a God who can and does convict the lost, who operates in and through Christians to touch the hearts of the lost, and who can answer such prayers as, "Father, please spare thier lives and keep them safe so that they might have time and opportunity to trust you."
I am told that "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
My praying for God to convict and for the lost to be receptive seems reasonable and in accordance with God's will (that all might be saved).
A believer in predestination has no basis for praying for the lost to be saved. God will determine the matter irregardless of their prayers. What would ring true for them is "the effectul fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth NOTHING."
You didn't say that you would keep praying for the lost, so I'll just deduce that you won't be. I suppose by inserting the word "not" within my wording, you are suggesting that I shouldn't pray for the lost either.
(But I think I will anyway)
You suppose wrong. By inserting the changes within your wording, I am suggesting that you think again about what you believe on the matter and not just what you say others must believe.
Again a slight change in wording and we have: "A believer in free will has no basis for praying for the lost to be saved. God will not determine the matter irregardless of their prayers, but leaves it up to the free will of the unbeliever. What would ring true for them is the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth NOTHING."
You say your praying for God to convict and for the lost to be receptive seems reasonable and in accordance with God's will that all might be saved. Why are you asking Him to do something you say is already His will and He is just waiting to do if the sinner will just choose Him by his own free will. Shouldn't you be talking to the sinner? God's already ready and waiting.
Is it not because you have at least a slight belief that man is not totally free in his will? That if left to himself he would never choose God? Isn't a God who can and does convict the lost one who exerts His will upon their wills, at least to some degree? Which is what I've been discussing since the comments in the other thread -- that man's will is not "free". It is bound within his nature. His nature is at enmity with God.
Brother James, I am always bothered by statements that, if followed to their end, mean that if what we know right now about God's Word isn't correct then we maybe should quit believing in the Bible's God. That said, I don't expect you or I to quit believing.
I believe I understand your point. I just don't agree with it. You don't have to read something into Deut. 2:30 based upon previous beliefs if you take what it says -- the reason Sihon did not allow the Israelites to pass through his land peacefully is because God hardened him and made him obstinate. The end of this was to judge him and give his land to the people of Israel. From your statements you don't seem to really believe God hardened his spirit and made him obstinate. I base this on your statement "God did not force this man's heart to harden." Now we can play on the word "force" or "free will" or whatever else, but the text -- the inspired text -- says GOD HARDENED, not that Sihon did. It was active on God's part.
I believe that a method of "throwing out examples of a verse that cannot be answered until one understands the heart of the issue" is a flawed approach that flaws the total understanding of the issue. All data should be entered. Now we may have to place in abeyance some things we don't understand until later, but we don't throw them out. That approach is like a scientist finding some contradictory data and throwing out some of it to come to a conclusion -- instead of continuing till he sees where this "contradictory" data meets in the facts. Or like the mathematician who is given a set of numbers to add. In it he finds a few negative numbers and decides to throw them out since they're not consistent with the rest. But his total will be skewed.
Not only that, but the implication that we are talking about "one or two examples" is also flawed, in my opinion. In my opening post alone, I referenced about 3 dozen scriptures. We may not agree on them, but we are talking about more than one or two.
I, as you, believe the Scriptures harmonize. I am not as confident that you or I always harmonize them correctly. Just because the knots are little and pretty and tight doesn't mean we have tied them correctly.
OK Bro. Robert.....I'll keep praying to God for the lost, even though I know His will is that all be saved. Perhaps He will answer my prayers to powerfully convict them and to keep them safe until they trust Him. At the very least, He will know my heart.
I will talk to the lost (and I shuold do more of it) because if it's God's will for them to be saved, and in their free will they respond to the drawing Spirit of God, then a soul is saved from hell.
I'm not sure what kind of prayer you would pray based on your beliefs. You haven't given an example.
IMO, we have reached a point of verbal semantics and polar opposites. I feel as if we are as two basketball players playing a game of one-on-one, except I am on a court in Tokyo and you are on a court in New York.
I respect you personally and your study of God's Word. I disagree with you with a clear conscience and a firm belief on the multitude of scriptures which teach that man ultimately has a choice to make with regards to his eternity.
We each seem to be singing the same song....."I Shall Not Be, I Shall Not Be Moved..."
I like that song and maybe we are each singing it, but not too harmoniously! ;-) Maybe we should also sing at times "Turn us, O LORD, and we shall be turned."
Brother R.L.
Is it God's will that all men should be saved and follow Him?
Brother Adrian, I think that since God sovereignly decides what men will or won't do, He wants you and I to believe in salvation by grace THROUGH faith and free will. He wants us to believe this lie and teach others. Since He has sovereign control and reign over ever decision man makes, He also wants all false religions established. He wants false doctrines to send people to Hell. He wants His own children to sin against the commands He gave them. He wants death, evil, and sin on this earth under His perfect and complete control. It won't be until later that he changes His mind and character to create a perfect earth without sin, death, and evil called New Earth. Of course, if He changes His mind and character again, I'd hate to see what happens to those in that New Earth.
Brother James,
Under the predestination system (including its perversion of sovereignty), God not only wants sin, death, perishing, etc., He is the author of it.
Predestination, as presented in this thread, is closely akin if not the same as the philosophy of Determinism (promoted by David Hume, Baruch Spinoza, Nietzche and others) wherein every event, every action, every thought is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurences. In other words, there ARE NO CHOICES. This is why this sad philosophy is sometimes now referred to as "Fatalism." The perfect name.
Except of course for those who God really loves and wants to save. (sarcasm)
Brothers, your last two postings are more befitting the thoughts on God and the fly by skeptic Mark Twain than that of Baptist preachers, in my opinion. While caricaturing what you think I believe, you poke fun that God could cause people to believe a lie (e.g. I Kings 22:23; II Thess. 2:11), that there must be heresies (I Cor. 11:19), and other such things as I discussed on the post.
Bro. James, to some of your questions, Is it God's will that all should be saved and is it God's ultimate will that all men except a few perish and go to Hell? The answers are "no" and "no". It is not God's will that all should be saved. Even you don't believe that, though you claim you do. That is universalism, pure and simple. It is a qualified all that will be saved and it is that qualified all that God undertakes to save. All "who believe" does not equal all "without exception". It is not that we disagree that all who believe will be saved, but that we disagree how they will come to believe. You believe it is by man's free will choice (I find it interesting that a subset of free will Baptists like free will on the front side {making a decision to be saved} and predestination on the back side {eternal security}). But it is the work of God by which man comes to believe apart from his nature which is at enmity with God. Secondly, it is not God's will that "all but a few" go to Hell. The book of Revelation describes a multitude out of every kindred, tongue and nation are His people. No, there are no scriptures at all that are in error, whether your "overwhelming majority" you like or the "few minor examples" you throw out.
Seeing you despise predestination in any form, when will you brethren reject your baptisms descended from predestinarian calvinistic heretics and ask for baptism at the hands of free will Baptists?
Per one of your examples, "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance", let us consider the context. Who, in context, is God not willing to perish? Well, it must not have been those He destroyed in the flood (3:5-6), or those He prophesies He will destroy in the future (3:10). He is willing they should perish, because He has caused and will cause them to perish. Surely you will not argue that those who perished in the flood and will perish at His coming do not really perish?
But Peter said, "longsuffering to us-ward" -- thereby qualifying any and all -- any of us; all of us. Then undertake to discover who "us" is. Everyone who ever lived, without exception? Or someone else, a particular people to whom Peter writes (cf. 3:1; 1:1)? The longsuffering of God is salvation (3:15), but some will perish. This is just one example of where we perhaps have not enjoined the whole context to see whether we are speaking of all without exception or a qualified/modified all.
No comment to the Mark Twain reference...
Bro. Robert states, "It is not God's will that all should be saved." At least after that statement, you tried to take a stab at II Peter 3:9, but can you prove that "not willing that ANY should perish" even refers back to "us-ward?" His will is that ALL should come to repentance.
Perhaps you could now address the "whosoevers" of the Bible which you have ignored thus far?
Perhaps you could explain the following scriptures for us:
I Timothy 2:3,4 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
I John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Let's throw in an Old Testament verse just to see that God can lie in the Old Testament too (sarcasm)
Isaiah 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
If you can't read these verses and understand that God wants all to be saved, seriously, we are on two different planets.
As far as your attempts to take us down the road of church history on this thread and mine, I'm sure we all could find heresies in Baptist churches of previous ages (and even today obviously).
Do you know the detailed history of the church you pastor? Were there sponsoring churches in that church's lineage that believed in general atonement and free will? Will you be re-baptized?
Does the church that licensed you to preach believe in predestination as you do?
What about the church you pastored at Praire Grove? Did you preach this there in front of the people? Or did you keep it hidden?
Also, do you think it's right and proper for a preacher who is trying to start a new work, to accept support from another church knowing that they believe in "free will"?
I imagine that supporting church who is sending monthly offerings with their limited but hard earned money would like to know it if that preacher, believes in predestination. (I could plug in the details but you know what I am referring to)
You seem to think that you have some deep level understanding of how God saves. The Bible teaches that He convicts, that He draws, that his grace appears to all men, but nowhere does the Bible teach that He forces man to be saved. Man has a conscious choice (decision) with regards to the drawing power of God.
Bro. Adrian, you complain about my "stab" at II Peter 3:9, but just putting words in CAPS does not explain the context.
You want me to address the "whosoevers" of the Bible "which you have ignored thus far" and want an explanation of certain scriptures for us. Of course, you brothers also have offered no explanation, but just thrown them on the table claiming they are your verses. All one has to do is use Bro. James' method of starting with one's presuppositions found elsewhere and import them into the text. Find that some texts have qualified/modified whosoevers and alls (e.g. Rom. 1:16 & 10:12-13, meaning all, whether Jews or Gentiles, not all men without exception) and then determine the rest of them mean the same. Throw out any thing that doesn't fit. But, you see, I really haven't undertaken to address all the whosoevers of the Bible and those are really a smoke screen y'all have thrown up to prove that God cannot and does not operate sovereignly in His universe. It does not answer the Scriptures we began discussing; it seeks to eliminate them (or throw them out, to quote Bro. James).
You seem not to enjoy my "attempts to take us down the road of church history on this thread and mine",* possibly because it's a bumpy road for free will Landmarkers who deny their ancestors. I have not disagreed that we can find heresies in Baptist churches of previous and present ages. You ask whether I know the detailed history of the church I pastor. Yes, pretty much, and yes there were "sponsoring churches" in that church's recent lineage that believed in general atonement (Landmark MBC of Mt. Enterprise being the immediate connection). But did you notice any place where I called them heretics, as have you some of the people from whence you came?
Your anger, or whatever it is, lets your imagination run wild. You worry about what I preached at Prairie Grove and you imagine that a supporting church who is sending monthly offerings with their limited but hard earned money would like to know it if that preacher believes in predestination. I haven't noticed you or anyone else sending any monthly offerings my way today -- the day I am posting the stuff you don't agree with. If y'all are, I'm not getting it. Better check into it and see where it is going. I suppose you've never changed anything you believed. Concerning the mission work at Nacogdoches, why not say that rather than a veiled reference of "you know what I am referring to"? If you say I did a poor job of establishing a church in Nacogdoches, then I will say "amen". If you are trying to say I was flying under false colors re general/limited atonement, then you are wrong.
You seem to be offended that I offer my understanding of how God saves. Is yours the only "deep level" understanding and no one else's is allowed? In fact, I have admitted that I don't have it all figured out, but am satisfied which the basic understanding I do have (my second post in the comment thread).
*Note: Since you are offended, I will relieve you of any future problems of what I might post on your blog, beginning now.
Bro. Robert,
I was not impugning your work in Nacogdoches. I do know that my home church of Emmanuel MBC in Pollok, of which I was a member and a giver, supported both Praire Grove and the Nacogdoches work (you), yet would likely have not done so if they knew you believed in predestination. Perhaps you did not believe this idea at that time.
I don't mind travelling down the road of churh history, either. It's just that it would be as bumpy for you as for me (or anyone else).
Since you think I am only throwing up smoke screens and have a wild imagination, it is probably best that we cease discussing this.
I don't pretend to have some deep level of understanding, either. Like you, I suppose, I just try to read and study God's Word and ask Him for wisdom and faith to understand it and apply it.
This is your blog, your thread...if I have written anything to offend you, you can remove it if you like.
I will disagree with you on this issue, but if I see you in person I will shake your hand and be glad to see you, as I have wondered where you were in recent years and what you were doing. I am not unaware of people at Oak Flat calling you in 1997 and asking you for a name, and you gave them mine.
In conclusion, you do not offend me personally. I am offended by what I see as unscriptural idea, that yes, some Baptists have believed.
I have asked God's forgiveness if I have argued in the flesh, and not in a spirit of contending for the faith.
The work in Nacogdoches was a failure as far as organizing a church (we did organize one, but it was short-lived). The faithful support of Emmanuel is not unappreciated, even to this day. IIRC, what Paul said to the Philippians, "no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only" could have been said at times concerning Emmanuel.
I agree that the road of church history can be bumpy for all, but especially so when folks set themselves up with false expectations and then stick their heads in the sand when they are not met. I do not know what you believe particularly, but I know for a fact some Missionary Baptists will not receive baptisms for exactly the same reasons that would cut off their own if they would only be consistent.
I do not think of you generally as person of "wild imagination", but I did feel that you were imagining scenarios from the past which were not correct, and could have been corrected if you had asked.
The "throwing up smoke screens" expression is wrong because it implies a deliberate intent to disguise or deceive. I don't think you're deliberately trying to deceive anyone. I did think y'all were discussing something I wasn't discussing. For whatever reason, you and Bro. Snyder wanted to talk about general/limited atonement -- which is a minor blip on my radar -- a part of a focus on building a systematic theology that, in my opinion, often leads into either leaving off one side or the other of the Bible's teaching on God's sovereignty or man's responsibility. And sometimes I probably didn't get it straight because you both didn't always appear to believe exactly the same thing.
I don't intend to remove what you've written. It represents what you believe, and I am not offended (when I am, I don't stay that way long after taking a deep breath).
As I said, that was my last question, so now I'll post my last comment without question.
First, if God desires a majority of the human race (not a select few) to enter Heaven, then He contradicts Jesus' statement that few be who go in that small narrow gate. Few who find the small path. If, as you suggest, it is God's will, and He has total control over the situation regardless of man's choice, then it DOES contradict that He isn't willing any should perish, since that verse obviously isn't referring to ANY physical body, but to the second death or the perishing of a lost soul. It says He isn't willing that any should perish, and until you can explain that (the heart of the issue, God's will - here it explicitly states what He is NOT willing) you cannot explain anything. Give me ANY scripture suggesting God wills that the majority of men perish. Show me ANY verse suggesting God wants the majority of men to die, and only a "few" to find Him as Jesus said. Explain any verse to explain away all the "whosoever" verses. Explain any verse to explain why the Bible teaches God's Word would fall upon "all men". Explain all the scriptures that show Jesus wanted men to preach the gospel to ALL men. It would go against God's character of being a loving, gracious and merciful God to command His church to preach to all nations. It would go against His nature to reveal Himself in the heaven to all men by showing His handiwork. It would go against His nature to send the gospel to be preached to all the world, if He is going to send all the world (save the few and those few in Revelation compared to the population of the world of all time).
You ARE suggesting God wants some men to reject His gift. You are suggesting God wants some to (therefore) sin. This contradicts the fact that God tempts no man.
You suggest God wanted the men before the flood to get to such a sinful state and perish. The Bible says God was grieved at His heart, not rejoicing. It even repented Him that He had made man, because of their choices. If that whole flood thing was God's ultimate plan anyway, under His perfect will (not permissive), then you suggest it didn't repent God.
I am not Calvinistic and I honestly don't care what my "church fore-fathers" believed. I'm not Free-will works for salvation, and I honestly don't care what my "church fore-fathers" believed. I believe the Bible for what it says. And just because that falls in between Free-will and Calvinism doesn't make it wrong.
You also misunderstand more than I thought. Psuche or Psyche is the Greek word for soul. It means more or less mind. Even if you disagree, hear me out. The body is the where our sin nature resides and is attached to. Any body given by a human father gives with it sin nature. Thus, the sinlessness of Christ is no contradiction to the natural process God already set aside, for he had no body from an earthly father. The psyche, the soul, the mind, the eternal aspect of man has no nature. It is neutral. It starts as a blank slate upon birth. It begins to make choices which are sinful, because it has only one nature from which to choose. It does not know good. That is, until God reveals good to it. The mind then has an opportunity to choose good and choose God, if it is presented with a choice. Until then naturally, it cannot. A choice MUST be given to choose God. So when one hears the good news of God, he can choose to follow the foreign way of God, or follow the old way of his own flesh (body) nature. This MUST be so on account of the many scriptures.
Jesus said if He be lifted up, He would draw ALL men unto Him. I guess it isn't the irresistible drawing as you propose. I don't understand how you got into this Calvinistic mind-set, and honestly I don't care. I love you as a brother, and I pray God blesses you as you seek Him in your studies.
You wanted me to answer all questions in your original posts it seemed, especially those minor scripture examples (I call them minor b/c they are examples, not verses that directly address the question, not because they are minor as all Scripture is of equal important. They are minor to this discussion, in my opinion.)
Does God do what He pleases? Yes. (Cf. Psalm 115:3; 135:6; Jonah 1:14; Isaiah 46:10;)
Yes, of course. The issue isn't does God do what He pleases. Of course He does. The question is rather, "what does please God?"
Can anyone stop Him from doing so? No. (Cf. Dan. 4:35; Isa. 14:14-27; 43:13;)
Of course someone can. His own character. God, no matter Who He is, cannot ever act outside of His own character. A law that applies to all is that character determines will, and will determines choice. So, we are asking about God's character.
Can God move, turn and/or change the will of man?
I believe this question is slanted. The real question is, is it in God's will to directly CHANGE the will of man. Not to influence it by His revelation. Not to give it a violent shove by circumstances. The question is, "Is it in God's character and will to choose to directly usurp man's free will from him, and make his decisions for him." If I hold a gun to your head and say "give me your clothes or die", I have influenced your decision greatly by circumstances, but it is still your choice. Someone might say I changed your mind, but the fact is you still made the choice. This is an important distinction that MUST take place in order to continue the conversation.
I assert that God not only can, but does, move, turn, and /or change the will of man -- according to numerous Scriptures, if we take them at their simple and literal meaning.
OK, again, we need to clarify. Are you referring to the DIRECT forcing of a man's will to change, or giving man certain options to where he is more inclined or less inclined to make a certain decision (like the man holding the gun to your head)?
God changes events. Many will agree here, at least if we don't push it too far. God is sovereignly absolutely in control of all events that take place in His universe. We can quibble over what He "causes" and what He "allows", but how can any Bible reader deny that God is working out His will in all things?
The "quibbling" is the question here, so let's keep it in mind.
God was in control of the events of the destruction of Job's possessions, deaths of his children, and debilitation of his body.
Job 1:21 - And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 23:13-14 - But he (God) is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul...
desireth, even that he doeth. For he (God) performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
Now, this is funny to me. First of all, Job does not have a perfect understanding of God. Remember in the last chapter, Job stated he had heard of God, but now he saw God? Job doesn't always know right from wrong, so even if he stated what you suggest, you cannot in any way prove Job is right. Second, let's assume Job is right. All this proves is that God changed circumstances concerning man, yet did not force Job to change his mind about anything.
God was in control in settling Israel in the land of Canaan, even to making it an inhospitable place for others.
Exodus 23:28 - And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
Deuteronomy 7:20 - Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.
Joshua 24:12 - And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.
Psalms 44:1-2 - O God, our fathers have told us, what work thou didst in their days...How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
Did God change their minds, or give certain circumstances and allow them to change their own minds? We have no answer. So this is what I mean by "throwing out" certain scriptures. Until we have an answer concerning the issue at hand, we cannot allow some example verses that could side in favor of either argument to get in the way. We should properly understand them once we have answer to the issue, does God force man's will to change.
God was in control of Ahab's death -- He determined the cause, the events and the instrument.
I Kings 22:23 - Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
I Kings 22:34 - And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
(God also kept Jehoshaphat from being killed: II Chron. 18:31 - And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, It is the king of Israel. Therefore they compassed about him to fight: but Jehoshaphat cried out, and the LORD helped him; and God moved them to depart from him.)
Ok, so here, I would have argued more from the lying spirit aspect than the death aspect. Still, a spirit (a breath, a wind, an influence) that the false prophets already had anyway (to deceive, since they were false prophets). If God forced them to lie, not just influenced, but forced their minds to change from a truth into a lie, then He actually sent the lie Himself. This would be against His immutable character of truth. On top of this, we still do not have direct reference that God changed any mind of any man.
God was in control of when and where the Israelites would go into captivity.
Jer. 29:4 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
Ezek. 39:28 - Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Still in agreement, but was it by direct changing of a mind? Still no direct answer.
God changes minds. Still the heart of the issue, and still waiting for you to address it.
Many are not so disturbed by God's influence of events, and probably don't meditate too much on the fact that in changing events He changes minds. In changing events, He does NOT change minds. If so, the man holding a gun to your head is FORCING you to change your mind. If events control decision making as opposed to character and will, then I can FORCE you to change your mind and do anything you desire. I know I'm not God, but you are suggesting God changed minds indirectly by changing events. This has not, never has been, nor ever will be the case. So far, to prove your point, you MUST prove to me Biblically that influencing events forces minds to change. If so, we are not only subject to deciding based upon the events God directly changes, but also to those events God placed in nature we know as Natural Processes or those things we can observe with true science. If God is forcing minds to be changed based upon natural events, you raise a huge amount of questions I can't even begin to address concerning why God would still act if He could have just left it the way it was in the beginning, and a great number more. I do not believe natural events, or surrounding circumstances, or any other outside foreign influence can force a man to change his mind. If someone threatens to kill my entire family, it is still my choice what to do. I can let him, kill him, obey him, etc. It is my character that determines my will, and my will that determines my choice. Character (heart, who we are) determines will (
To continue… "Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders…"
As a matter of fact, NOTHING from the outside can defile us. It is only our character, our will, and then our choices that defile us according to a few verses before,
"Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man."
"James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (14) But every man is tempted,
when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
I don't know how it gets any clearer than James 1:13-15. A man's sin come from within him, not from God. A man's choice to defy God, or to disobey God, or to reject God, or any sin against God's laws or commands comes from within him. To reject Christ is a sin (and unpardonable). They come from his choice. It would not make sense for God to command men to be saved, and then force them not to. It would be contradictory in nature and essence, and also mean that God has a contradictory nature and essence.
You continued, But what disturbs the human mind is to suppose that it is not free to think and do as it wishes.
God hardened Pharoah's heart against the Jews, that He might deliver Israel and destroy the Egyptians.
Exodus 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
(God said he would harden Pharaoh's heart long before it mentions Pharaoh hardening his heart.)
God turned the heart of the Egyptians against Israel, before and after Moses came.
Psalm 105:25 - He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
Exodus 14:17 - And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
(Egyptians didn't make a free will decision to drown in the Red Sea. They were hardened by God to follow Israel to die in the sea.)
God hardened Sihon's heart and made him obstinate, and then judged him.
Deut 2:30 - But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
The king, whether Pharaoh, Sihon or someone else, in in the Lord's hands. Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Romans 9:18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
These are the only three examples so far that APPEAR to deal with God changing a mind. We will, therefore, save them for the end of this discussion.
You continued God, using Satan, provoked David to number Israel.
II Sam. 24:1 - And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
I Chron. 21:1 - And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
God blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of some of those to whom Isaiah preached, as well as some to whom Jesus preached and preformed miracles.
John 12:40 - He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Isaiah 6:9-10 - And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
So again, we find God made change events and circumstances, but men make their choices none the less. I, therefore, do not find this a valid reference.
God turned the heart of the Assyrian king to favor the people of Israel.
Ezra 6:22 - And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
Still, how did God do so? Did he give certain events, did He send a prophet to reveal something, did He reveal Himself to the king of Assyria? Did He send Jonah to preach, and the king and all of Assyria decided to accept the truth, and then be open to God's will later.
Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
When the Bible says it pleased the Lord to bruise/crucify His Messiah, it is not in the sense that He received some kind of sensual or sadistic gratification, but that He was fulfilling His will from the foundation of the world. The Hebrew word chaphets -- to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with -- is also translated will.
Not much to do with the issue, but I will add a tid bit here for free. Why did God wait until a certain "fullness" of time and Jesus as well always saying "my time is not yet come" if He could have just as easily FORCED men in the time before Noah's day to send Jesus. Why? He was waiting for the exact circumstances based upon men's choices to arrive where if He placed Jesus at a certain place and a certain time, based upon men's choices, Jesus would be crucified in the exact manner as happened. God was waiting on the fullness of time, the Roman Empire to be in existence, the exact soldier who pierced His side to be on duty that day, etc, etc, etc.
God will do all His pleasure. Let us leave off our humanistic worries about Him somehow violating our free will. He doeth all things well.
Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Psalms 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Psalms 135:6 - Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 43:13 - Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Daniel 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Still, we find only that God will do as He wills, not WHAT He wills. If we don't know WHAT He wills, or WHAT His character is, then we cannot know whether God will change mind's man. This isn't even the argument here. Do you want people to say "Oh yeah, of course you are right here, so you must be right there…" The problem is, God doing as He wills is not the question. Nobody disagrees. The question is, what does God will? Does He desire most men to go to Hell? Does He desire most men to sin and disobey His will? If everything that takes place is according to His sovereign will, then He indeed wants men to sin. He tempts them to sin. He makes them sin. He makes them reject Him. He creates men, then forces them to live sinful lives, then He forces them to choose Hell. God forces all things upon all men, if some are saved only by His choice. This leaves us with the question, WHY did God create most men? We have no answer. Why did God then create the universe? We have no answer. Why did God send Jesus to die instead of just forcing men to choose His path from the beginning? We have no answer. Why didn't God force Adam to obey His will? We have no answer? God could force ALL men to follow His perfect will overriding all free will, and therefore have all men live perfectly, and then force them all to glorify Jesus on the highest plane and glorify Him on the highest plane. He does not need to allow ANYTHING to unfold as it does with sin, Hell, murder, etc. He can prevent it all if He is in the business of changing minds. NOTHING in the Bible then makes sense. The fact that God gave the law, and then didn't make the men to whom He gave it makes no sense. The ENTIRE BIBLE makes no sense following these methods of interpretation. I see down that road inevitable contradictions of God's Word, God's commands, God's reasoning, God's character and in God's immutability. I would find God a liar. I therefore would find God's Word to be a lie with NO way around it. All of this is ONE reason I cannot accept the Calvin mind-set.
I will now address your three verses, and then move on to begin proving God does not affect free will.
God hardened Pharoah's heart against the Jews, that He might deliver Israel and destroy the Egyptians.
Exodus 4:21 - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
(God said he would harden Pharaoh's heart long before it mentions Pharaoh hardening his heart.)
God turned the heart of the Egyptians against Israel, before and after Moses came.
Psalm 105:25 - He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
Exodus 14:17 - And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
(Egyptians didn't make a free will decision to drown in the Red Sea. They were hardened by God to follow Israel to die in the sea.)
God hardened Sihon's heart and made him obstinate, and then judged him.
Deut 2:30 - But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
The king, whether Pharaoh, Sihon or someone else, in in the Lord's hands.
Ok, so again, you see God hardening some hearts and a spirit. All three of these show God's hand at work. The question of the issue is still, as always, did God or does God FORCE a man's mind to change? Not does He work in mysterious ways that influence natures or give strong encouragement to make a certain decision. Here, we have the ONLY three examples (with an exception I will address momentarily) that MIGHT suggest something concerning the issue. Still, however, there is no direct reference stating God changed a man's will. It could be that God influenced them and encouraged them using circumstances, events, etc. One can harden a heart by a medium. One can turn a heart by influencing or encouraging someone, but it does not mean that the person did not still choose. You can say that man who hits someone turns their heart toward anger, or "makes them" strike out. You can preach "the devil made me do it" or "God made me do it", but you surely don't believe this. The entire reason God gives salvation by grace THROUGH faith is because He wants us to choose Him.
Now that, as you desired, I have addressed all your original post (which I originally had no intention of doing), I will give the argument with a few of the scriptures that address the issue directly that I can call from the top of my head. Also, since it appears you want examples, I'll list them as well (but I'll wait until the end until after I get bring out Scriptures that directly address the issue).
"Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil."
So men have a choice, according especially to verse 29 when coupled with 33. God gives them a choice. He can give it to them once, or twice, but He appointed and ordained that "whoso hearkens" SHALL dwell safely, and whosoever did not "choose the fear" of the Lord (the conclusion of the WHOLE matter according to Ecclesiastes 12) will fall to the fruits of their choice (verse 32 here). Verse 28 appears to be giving man no choice, but when coupled with the rest of these scriptures both before (verse 24) and after, you see this is not the case. God is merely letting them reap what THEY have sown, what THEY have chosen. Not what He has chosen for them. He offered them choice, they rejected it. This is stated clearly, but then addresses the heart of the issue with verse 32 directly showing it to be God's will that they would have chosen Him, and He still offers this choice to all who will.
"Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. "
Even God allowed JESUS to have free choice and will. Remember "nevertheless, not my WILL but THINE be done?" Jesus CHOSE God the Father's will over His own will.
"Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;"
Why would God EVER give such a command to these eunachs if He decides for them?
"Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Obviously, God offered a choice here, and again later when they turned their backs on God.
"Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."
Notice when God chooses, He chose that the Gentiles should believe by hearing the word of God and BELIEVING. He chose that they should CHOOSE Him. This has been and always will be God's choice. God wants all to BELIEVE. What does believe mean? "To place one's faith, that is, to entrust one's self to Christ. To commit one's trust in." I suppose God didn't want me to place their faith in Him, since He was going to do it for them. Now that was from a Greek Lexicon.
Let's get Webster's 1828 of "believe".
"To credit upon the authority or testimony of another; to be persuaded of the truth of something upon the declaration of another, or upon evidence furnished by reasons, arguments, and deductions of the mind, or by other circumstances, than personal knowledge. When we believe upon the authority of another, we always put confidence in his veracity."
Notice it is by EVIDENCE (which is reasoned and accepted or rejected), REASONS (the same), ARGUMENTS (the same), DEDUCTIONS OF THE MIND (the same), OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES (the same), than personal knowledge. In basic words if you read Webster's definition OR the Greek definition, you find believing is becoming persuaded based upon introducing new information to a man. He then rejects it, or allows it through to his brain. If he allows it through, he reasons it with his old information. If it passes this test, he begins to feel one way or another. After he begins to feel, he begins to add his decision based upon his reasoning the new information against the old information into his "old information" box. This is what he is dogmatic about. This is what he believes.
Let's assume all this is wrong. Let's say Webster and the Greek Lexicons I own (which all pretty much say the same thing) have a TOTALLY flawed concept of the words, and we have no way of truly knowing what believe means either in syntax or context during the time this was written.
We should then compare "believe" with other scriptures with the same word.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God loved who? The world, and not just parts of it. Why did He give His Son? That WHOSOEVER believeth in him. It was for the goal that WHOSOEVER (any and all that make such a choice) should not perish. He clarifies in verse 17, God did not send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the WORLD might be saved through Him. Why are people condemned? Why do they go to Hell? Why does God allow them to perish? THEY DID NOT BELIEVE! After being introduced to the new information, they rejected it.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
Examples that indirectly reference the issue like those you brought forth (after having addressed the heart of the issue):
Adam and Eve had a choice.
God made it clear what His ultimate will was. He told them DO NOT eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. His will was NOT to do so, yet they did. This means the choice was theirs, not God's. He allowed it. This shows God's character and will ultimately is that man would CHOOSE Him, not that man would not sin. If God's will was for Adam to "NOT" eat, then there was NO reason for Him to allow man to do so. But He did. Why? The only logical understanding I can find in all the universe is that God wanted man to CHOOSE Him, and if He took away the choice/free will to do so, God's reason for man's existence would no longer be in effect. If God is in the business of changing wills and desires, why did God give Adam a choice in the first place? Why did God allow sin? I suppose this is where you might either say "I don't know" or "It pleased Him, who am I to question it?" If you have an answer, PLEASE give it.
Cain had a choice God gave to him, not a choice God made for him.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
If not, God is patronizing Cain here. This is against His character if He is the God of the Christian Bible.
Rahab the harlot chose to help God's people. God then offered her another choice, to leave the house and die, or stay in and live. She chose.
Now something else is interesting. You suggested God chose when Babylon would capture Judah. While He surely affected circumstances and encouraged, He also gave a choice.
Eze 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
Eze 33:3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
Eze 33:4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
Eze 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
Scriptures bear out some chose His way and some chose to do things their own way and die.
Referring in partial fulfillment to Babylonian captivity, in partial application to the day of Pentecost as Peter quoted, and in complete fulfillment to the end times if you study the rest of it this book, the prophet reads…
"Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
Again, we see the issue of man's salvation addressed directly and clearly (the simplest most literal understanding not of an example, but of a text directly addressing the issue of man's choice in salvation) in the following scriptures:
"Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. "
What about "John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." which shows when men disobey God, they DO NOT do God service, even if they think so? They do not glorify Him, or honor Him. If their choice is forced upon them by Him or even allowed for the ultimate end of His glory (in anything other than man's free will), then this verse makes no sense.
Romans 9 and 10 are the same, following the theme that God is no respecter of any one person, but rather will save whosoever shall call upon Him. The theme is all throughout the entire Bible, but especially in the book of Romans.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
In this verse, according to the "God's choice, man's slavery" idea, God created men to be His enemy… ok?
All of 1 John shows this also, that whoever chooses Jesus receives eternal life. Also, whoever
Ok, so we've discussed the scriptures at the heart of the issue, the examples I could remember, etc. There are millions of more examples I do not have the time to exhaust including the MANY times Israel made choices (like in Judges, even the time God said I won't help you, but because Israel kept choosing to beg Him, He chose to, or the parable of the poor widow begging the king over and over again, to persuade Him, and God asking us to do so as well.)
Finally, " Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
If this doesn't prove that man can resist the power and ORDAINING, APPOINTING, CALLING, PREDESTINATING of God and go to Hell of their own choice, I don't know what does.
Bro. James, you're still a young man and I can't match the free time or energy to put up an answer to all of your posts. But thanks for sharing your position in depth. I will make a few comments about your "last comment" and leave the dozen or so you posted after that to stand as a testament of how you have shown God will do as He wills, but not what He wills; turned their heart but didn't turn their heart; hardened his heart but didn't hardened his heart; moved someone but didn't move someone; and so forth. Some will demonstrate your giant leaps of logic, though none so well as on your own blog where Bro. Brooks' statement that "none of us make a god out of the written Word of God" means "They, and many others, do not equate God's Word with God...they do not believe God can be found in His Word."
I will leave it to you to debate with yourself as to how to resolve Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" and Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
It is interesting that you say II Peter 3:9 isn't referring to ANY physical body, but to the second death or the perishing of a lost soul. Yet we both know you believe that the longsuffering and repentance occurs in this life while that man is in A physical body, and that his physical death without repentance brings an end to God's longsuffering and his chance for repentance.
"Give me ANY scripture suggesting God wills that the majority of men perish." That is your argument, not mine. Do with it what you will. Under your system the majority of men will perish, whether God wills it or not.
You say you believe the Bible for what it says and honestly don't care what your "church fore-fathers" believed. That all sounds well and good on the surface, but it is nevertheless a strange statement for a Landmarker to make -- one who believes the church and its system of faith passed down from the beginning to you.
And lastly, I suppose I now understand you to deny total depravity -- man is not totally depraved, body, soul and spirit; only the body is depraved. (I guess you actually only talked about body & soul and didn't mention the spirit?).
A great number which no man could number is still "few" compared to the majority of those who have lived, who currently live, and will live. Otherwise, Jesus lied.
"Give me ANY scripture suggesting God wills that the majority of men perish." That is your argument, not mine. Do with it what you will. Under your system the majority of men will perish, whether God wills it or not."
The argument is that if God violates free will of man without problem, then because the majority of men do perish, it is God's will. Yes, under my system of belief, the majority of men will perish against God's will.
Concerning my statement about forefathers, I have a different understanding than you do of Landmarkism (or at least my belief is different than yours.) I believe God's truth has been passed down to each generation, and churches have accepted His truth and passed it down throughout the ages. As to whether or not it was the forefathers of my particular church or no, I cannot tell. All I know for sure is that God's promises are true and He promised true churches would exist, would succeed, and His words would not pass away.
As to the energetic youthful comment, I thank you. As to the "free time" comment, you just don't know. I type quickly (between 80-100 wpm). I spent maybe one hour and a half typing that response from the top of my head. I really should have been using the time for something else that I needed to be working on for school (where I teach English) but I gave it up and burned the midnight oil instead. Please don't suppose I have much free time.
Finally, you know from all my posts, I appreciate you and your stands. I respect you as a man, a pastor, and a scholar. I just disagree. I don't know what the whole thing about "not sending money" had to do with anything. I don't know that I've ever even heard of anyone neglecting to send money due to Calvinism. My issue would more closely be based on works for salvation or lack of faith for salvation. Adding to, or taking away from. ANyway, love you brother. Have a good day.
I will agree that a great number which no man could number COULD BE few compared to the majority of those who have lived, who currently live, and will live. You are apparently confident in "is few" based on the way you interpret Matthew 7.
I doubt we're that far apart in our understanding of Landmarkism, though our beliefs may have some differences. While church perpetuity is not historically demonstrable, a "cutting off" from that perpetuity in particular instances can be demonstrated. I assume it is a given among Landmark Baptists that a true church cannot be established without valid baptism of those constituting it. If so, if the ancestors of my or your church (or anyone else's) did not have valid baptism they are not true churches. You may not believe the following, but some do: a church holding the doctrines of grace -- total inability, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints -- is not a true church. For example on Adrian's Arrows, Bro. Hopson indicated he would not accept the "hard-shell" church at Elkhart as a true Baptist church. According to his logic, any Missionary Baptist churches that could be traced back to receiving their baptisms from that church would not have valid baptism. I am not sure why that is so hard to see.
You are welcome for the energetic youth comment. For some of us that is only a memory. Even if you don't have much "free time", putting all that together last night was quite a feat. My hat's off to you.
The reference about sending money had to do with two periods of time when Bro. Adrian's home church sent money to me to help in work I was doing first in Diboll and second in Nacogdoches (TX). The point was he thought they would have not done so if they thought I believed in predestination (by which I took him to mean unconditional election/limited atonement; most everyone believes in predestination of some kind, I think).
Not a total aside, but I just ran across this article by Nathan Finn: An Open Letter to my Non-calvinist Friends in the SBC. I think it articulates some of the simple things that concern some of us about the weak easy-decidism prevailing in many Baptist churches. A few things that concern me in this thread are: the confusion of the sovereignty of God with a particular systematic soteriology, the confusion of unconditional election/limited atonement with predestination, the rejection of total depravity, positing unbelievers to be saved, and an extreme negativity that equates "God doing as He pleases" with Calvinism proper. One hopeful thing I find is that, despite certain rhetoric that seemed otherwise, comments that are consistent with God's necessary working on a man's free will before man can or will come to God. Finally, I have learned what subject to pick if I want a lengthy comment thread! ;-)
Not sure what else to say. I don't know that anyone said unbelievers are saved. I said their sins are forgiven with the only exception of disbelief/unbelief. I don't believe ANYONE goes to Hell because they are sinners. They were forgiven at the cross, and therefore stand equal with all men to accept or reject Christ. People go to Hell because they do not believe (John 3:18).
As to the fact that we all agree God must call a man to be saved, I agree. I just believe He does so to all men (John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me). He starts drawing by the general revelation He gave displaying His handiwork and display of wrath upon nature in the past (Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:). Should a man seek Him out with all his heart, the Bible says God WILL be found of that man. Finally, for all men who seek God with all their hearts, they find God in His Word, and the Spirit draws/convicts using His tool/sword (Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:... Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart).
While I doubt I've convinced anyone of anything, I hope I've presented my case clearly and thoughtfully. I hope that I've shown my belief comes purely from my study of scripture, and not from what I've been told. I also hope I presented some new arguments you have not before heard, or at least in a different way that has given you thought.
Brother James, the reference to unbelievers being saved harked back to your answer of my question, "If so, will unbelievers be saved?" You responded, "The Bible's answer is yes, they are saved from all their sins. They go to Hell because they reject Christ, not b/c of their sins." There you did say they are saved, though you have further clarified that they are saved from all sins except one.
If I properly discern your meaning in your second paragraph, it is another matter of disagreement. What you seem to be saying is that man must first respond to the general revelation God gave in His creation. If that man seeks God out with all his heart, he will find God in His Word, and after that the Spirit draws/convicts using the word. Yet the Bible also says of man in his natural state that "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts" (Psalms 10:4) and "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom. 3:11). Jesus said to some "Ye will not come to me" and to all "No man cometh unto me except the Father with hath sent me draw him." From Adam & Eve until now it is God Who sought first before man sought Him.
I'm not sure whether you presented some new arguments I have not before heard, but certainly some in a novel way that was new to me.
Man does not seek God without God's drawing. I believe God has drawn ALL men (if I be lifted up... draw all men unto me.) The seeking after God begins with His drawing by the general revelation, and then continues with the specific revelation. It is only by God's revelation we are able to seek Him. The Spirit may use this general revelation on some level. I just believe He ordains all men to seek Him, and those who reject his ordination are damned (Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.") This scripture shows us God does use his power to draw, and ordains some to do things, yet they resist and receive damnation for it.
You see, as a man sees the revelation of God and begins to accept it by faith (Hebrews 11:1), he gains understanding. Then,
"The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness" (Proverbs 15:14).
To Israel concerning after they worship false idols, God demonstrated this in the verse "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul" (Deuteronomy 4:29). Notice He said "But if... thou shalt..." It was their choice to seek.
Finally, I want to say this. I do believe God is 100% sovereign. The question we seem to disagree upon is not does God do what He pleases. The question is what pleases God. My answer is that it pleases God first and foremost for man to CHOOSE God, and the only way such can exist is to give said man a choice (i.e. free will). By the nature of man CHOOSING Him, He cannot force it. It would be a paradox to cause such a thing, and one I could not comprehend if it were true. Some believe it is God's will to pick and choose some, and bring glory and honor to Himself by ways unknown, which we must accept by faith including eternity in Hell for the large wide gated many people whom God does not want in Heaven. I suppose this is where we disagree.
Brother James, thanks for once again adding further explanation of your beliefs. I am not sure I understand all of your meaning, but I think more than from the last post. It made me wonder beyond what you said whether you believe that God's general revelation through His creation satisfies His obligation to draw all men? That if they do not seek Him based on that, He is not obligated to send them more specific revelation? We agree on the words of man not seeking God without God's drawing and without His revelation, but not exactly on the definitions.
Romans 13:2 has nothing to do with God's power to draw, or men resisting His drawing and receiving damnation for it. Please check the context. The power is talking about kings/rulers/government. The ordinance of God is talking about God instituting the fact and position of government. The resisting is resisting governmental authority, and the damnation is the judgment the disobedient citizen receives.
I don't doubt that you do believe God is 100% sovereign. A main question certainly is what pleases God. But there are some shades of difference harking back to God doing what He pleases. Unless I have greatly misunderstood Adrian's and your responses in this thread, you believe God COULD NOT HAVE chosen some and left off others, even if He didn't do it that way. I believe He COULD HAVE, whether He did or not, even as Paul wrote in Romans 9: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The following is taken from From The Sunday Morning Circus by Forrest L. Keener. I ran across it this morning. It is not a commentary on this thread or the respondents in it. But it goes to the heart of what troubles me about churches abandoning the gospel of God and the God of the Bible. It winds up with a weak little God who is "wringing His hands" (or biting His nails) about what is going on in His creation.
"The problem is that men have forgotten or do not believe that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, and not only so, but the only means by which God will save. They thus conclude that we have the right as preachers and teachers, indeed the responsibility to develop techniques of presentation that make the gospel more understandable, more acceptable and more attractive to the world...What makes this an imitation gospel? Well it must somehow resemble all of the ingredients of the gospel and yet not be the real thing. First, sin is dealt with only in respect to men's condemnation. In other words, where the gospel states that Christ died for our sins, which truth is the seed-bed of the true gospel, this vital truth is just touched and man is hurried off to see what sin does to him. He is then taught that sin is to be dealt with, or has been dealt with, basically to prevent his condemnation. He is not shown by God's law the extreme sinfulness of sin or its nature to offend a Holy God. He is not shown the holy justice of God in condemning sinners, but is assured that God has done all He possibly can to let them off the hook and is now biting His nails until they do 'their part'. It is therefore, not sin that they are to flee from, but sin's condemnation.
I agree with the verse in Romans 9, that God ENDURED them. He didn't cause them, or force them, He endured. It is a passive allowing, not a pleasure to God. He endures it, for His glory, which ultimately is men CHOOSING God. So again, this doesn't contradict, for if God did not allow men to choose against Him, then He wouldn't have to endure this rejection for those who would choose Him.
Concerning your latest comment, I don't know who believes like that, but I always show the sinfulness of sin when witnessing. I usually go through all ten commandments, and emphasize for a good bit "come short of the glory of God" and the opposite of the perfection it requires to spend with God in Heaven leading to Hell. I explain in depth with those I tell about Christ concerning not just sin in general, but try my best to get them to admit they are sinners, and have broken 90-100% of God's ten commandments. To top it all off, I explain using Scripture how it isn't even ten laws, but all one, and one point breaks the entire law as a whole complete unit. When witnessing to a person, I do my best to "get them lost" before trying to "get them saved" so to speak.
Now, concerning the rest, I suppose slanted as it may be, I do believe. I do show them how God has done all in His power without forcing them, and the decision is now theirs. I show them how one day, they may gain everlasting life by believing (John 3:16) or be condemned by not believing on the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18). I show how it has NOTHING to do with works, but only by God's unearned gift of Jesus and our faith in it for salvation. Anyway, I'm off to bed and I don't know if I can continue posting on this same subject. It's getting redundant and tiresome to me. Have a good evening.
You say you don't know if you can continue posting on this same subject. I can appreciate that. If you think "redundant and tiresome", imagine my getting nearly 90 comments on a blog that usually gets no more that 3 or 4, if people comment at all. Know you are welcome to continue posting or not as you wish.
To say you agree with Romans 9 and then reference only the part you like is to avoid the issue. There are other phrases to come to terms with: made another [vessel] unto dishonour; vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, etc. -- not to mention the potter/clay relationship.
If you don't know who believes like that (the weak dishwater gospel Keener describes), check out some of the schemes touted by a few members of the Landmark forum.
Did you get a chance to review the context of Romans 13:2?
Oh, BTW, I am not complaining about the number of posts; just not used to it.
In the comment thread it was repeatedly implied and sometimes stated that the evidence for God moving, turning and/or changing the will of man was based on one or two obscure "examples". In addition to some 3 dozen scriptures previously given, here are some more. I may expand this into another post later if I feel energetic enough!
God stopped Abimelech from sinning:
Genesis 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
The Lord hardened hearts:
Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.
The Lord by His counsel stops, changes, brings to nothing the counsel of man:
Psalm 33:10-11 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
The Lord makes "evil", calamity, war, suffering:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God will keep from departing:
Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
The coming to pass of both the bad and the good depend on God and not man:
Lamentations 3:37-38 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
God will cause them to walk in His statutes:
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Cf. Phil. 2:12-13)
Nothing takes place outside of God's purpose and governance:
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Cf. Matt. 10:29)
Continued...
God's intent that some not be converted and forgiven:
Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
God gave some up to uncleanness and over to a reprobate mind:
Romans 1:24-28 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient
Some did not obtain what they sought because because God gave them not to see or hear, but a spiritual slumber:
Romans 11:7-9 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
God blinded Israel (at least temporarily) to bring in the Gentiles:
Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Suffering of Christians at the hand of evildoers (who are sinning) is according to God's will:
1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. (Cf. 3:17)
God puts in the heart of ten kings to give their kingdoms to the beast, to hate the whore, to make war on the Lamb...:
Revelation 17:16-17 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
We live, go here & there, do this or that, at the Lord's will:
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. (Cf. Acts 18:21; 21:14; I Corinthians 4:19; 16:7; Hebrews 6:3; Proverbs 16:1, 9, 33; 19:21; Jer. 10:23, et al.)
The Lord delights in destroying/judging:
Deuteronomy 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
The first major chapter of the Koran states of unbelievers, "[2.17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.
[2.18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back." This is just the first major chapter. It goes on and on and on throughout the entire Koran the same way. Some believe, and those who don't, can't. Certain ones are unbelievers, because Allah has ordained it so. They try to come to God, but do not get what they want, because Allah has said so. Throughout the entire Koran it says the same thing over and over again. It also teaches men are to be kind to one another for the sake of Allah (Father/god). They are all to serve Him faithfully by loving and being kind. They are supposed to leave alone and not bother the "People of the Book" (that's the Jew or the Christian.) This also is repeated time and again. They are to study, pray, love their neighbor as themselves, and trust in Allah for salvation as He works in them to make them perfect.
What makes their Allah any different than the god of Calvinism? As a matter of fact, the ONLY difference when I was seeking desperately between the Bible and Koran to find which one was truth, I found the God of the Bible created men to choose Him, and the god of the Koran was one who created men just for his pleasure and his own will (which we cannot know). I am not saying Calvinists worship Allah, I'm saying the god of the Koran is SO similar to the one in Calvinism.
I say yes, your examples (still examples, no set scriptures to directly address the heart of the issue) do seem to imply the idea someone came up with. They do not, however, show HOW God made these changes and hard hearts. They did not exclude that God did so through circumstances or a medium of sorts. Until you can find a single scripture that absolutely proves anything to the contrary, I won't believe in this unjust, unfair, similar to Allah, deity. Instead, I choose to believe in the Just, Fair, Righteous, Holy, Loving, Merciful, Gracious God of the Bible Who, according to the Word, predestinated all men to serve Him, Who according to the Bible, offers men choice, and Who according to Scripture created men to CHOOSE Him.
First, Brother James, as a total aside to this thread, I have used a quote from you to facilitate a discussion of completed revelation/new revelation in a new thread. You can see it HERE. If you have any objection, let me know and I will delete it. Thanks.
Let the reader note that it is Brother James quoting the Koran, not me. Everything I have quoted comes from The Holy Bible, King James Version. Whatever the Koran says about Allah has no bearing on what the Bible says about God and who God is. If there is some similarity between the god of Zoroastrianism and the God of free will Baptists, or between the god of some other religion and the God of the Bible, it doesn't really matter. We don't throw out the teachings of Jesus if we find that something Buddha or Confucius said agrees with it at some point. All this is immaterial and is a red herring, a guilt by association logical fallacy. The Bible is our sole rule of faith and practice, and what the Bible says about God is accurate and the definitive answer on the subject. So it makes no matter whether the Koran says "Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see." The BIBLE SAYS "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them," and that's what matters. Yes, the God of the Bible is different from the god of the Koran.
I cannot fathom what seems to be a dismissive attitude of these scriptures as "just examples"??? These are inspired historical accounts of God dealing with people, which reveal something about the character and work of God. If these do not truly record His dealings, just what do they say? Did God NOT really harden Pharaoh's heart? The Bible says He, in the active sense, did so. So to claim He did it through some medium is to add to the word of God.* It says God DID something, not that He followed through on something a man already had decided or just gave strong encouragement to make a decision. It is meaningless to say God hardened his heart if He didn't.
You say these scriptures do not show HOW God made these changes and hard hearts. Does this imply you grant He did make changes and harden hearts? You want to remove it to a second party. If we grant this for the sake of argument, it is nevertheless plain in the inspired grammar that God did it actively, not passively; deliberately, nor accidentally. I am curious that you seem to feel that God is somehow vindicated if you remove Him one step "through a medium". This is like saying it is wrong to shoot someone but it is alright to hire a hit man as a "medium" to do it for you. Same results. Same responsibility.
Unjust and unfair are your words to describe these events (or as you might say, my interpretation of them). But the Bible does says things like "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision," "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated," and "our God is a consuming fire." These are part of the entire work and character of God and we cannot dismiss or exclude them when considering the subject. I deny that God is unjust or unfair -- whether in hardening or softening, saving or destroying, opening or shutting, blinding or giving sight, killing or making alive. The Bible describes Him as doing all those things.
*This is not to say He cannot or does not use "mediums" or intermediary means. In some cases there are. The Mark 4:11-12 passage is a good example. In it Jesus used parables that "seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." I wonder if you use such "mediums" when witnessing to the lost, that they might not understand?
Noticed a typo; the following should be:
"...it is nevertheless plain in the inspired grammar that God did it actively, not passively; deliberately, not accidentally."
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