tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post114770800915640524..comments2024-03-18T15:28:19.721-05:00Comments on Ministry and Music - Seeking the Old Paths: Songs and doctrinal correctnessR. L. Vaughnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1153668533985640362006-07-23T10:28:00.000-05:002006-07-23T10:28:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1153507509488760052006-07-21T13:45:00.000-05:002006-07-21T13:45:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1149038465646929252006-05-30T20:21:00.000-05:002006-05-30T20:21:00.000-05:00I think perhaps you are mixing objections. I don't...I think perhaps you are mixing objections. I don't think I have suggested that every verse of Scripture would make a "good" song -- though it would be nevetheless scriptural. When I spoke of verses not being dealt with, I was referencing your mention that implied that certain verses are (or perhaps should be?) consistently not mentioned in sermons. Singing on the other hand, has no necessity of dealing with all the Scriptures -- does it glorify God, edify others and can we sing it from our hearts.<BR/><BR/>I did not originally set out to convince you to accept Watts' "prosperity of sinners cursed", just to point out that his language is very close to Scripture. Even when we don't agree with his interpretation, we will still nevertheless usually find Watts' language based on some portion of Scripture -- like when he seems to criticize envious Jews based on Psalm 118:22. One thing that we must keep in mind is that the Sacred Harp is a tune book, so it was never intended to give all the verses to a song. The original purchasers of White's book could go to their hymn books to find the rest of the poetry (or another piece of poetry) to sing with his tunes. Perhaps this is one area where the revisions of the book haven't kept up. On the other hand, denominational hymn books and song books will usually give the complete hymns, or at least as much as is agreeable to their theology. This cuts out much of the problem of lack of context, as is seen with Huntington in the Sacred Harp. The last verse kind of contextualizes it with the intent of the Psalmist in Psalm 73. The main point was the writer was envious at the prosperity of the wicked until he understood what their ultimate end was like. That changed his "tune", so to speak!<BR/><A HREF="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/watts/psalmshymns.i.i.clix.html" REL="nofollow">Watts' Psalm 73</A><BR/><BR/>I wouldn't call it cackling [is that how we sound when we're singing ;-)], but Bible verses dealing with the damnation of sinners is certainly not confined to the Psalms or the Old Testament. Unlike dashing children's heads against rocks, the damnation of sinners seems to be a New Testament doctrine.R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1149013136956326362006-05-30T13:18:00.000-05:002006-05-30T13:18:00.000-05:00Concerning the original thought of songs and doctr...Concerning the original thought of songs and doctrinal correctness, it might be explanatory for me to state that the original motivation for the post is the extreme position that some people (usually preachers) take, in which almost no songs are acceptable -- only the dozen or so they approve of! But my thoughts are not intended to advocate choosing unscriptural songs, just a little moderation and consideration of others. I think the verses posted on my "Tri-directional Singing" thread is a good guide in what to look for -- does it glorify God, edify others and can we sing it from our hearts (not just our lips only).<BR/><BR/>Amity, concerning your last post, all I can say is that Paul said all Scripture is inspired and all Scripture is profitable. That would include even the ones that might call down condemnation on one's enemies. I wouldn't expect any preacher to preach a sermon glorifying dashing children's heads against rocks. But if such verses are never dealt with in any fashion, doesn't it seem that we are not dealing with the whole counsel of God?R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148868188910737942006-05-28T21:03:00.000-05:002006-05-28T21:03:00.000-05:00This is a site talking about the hymn in question ...This is a site talking about the hymn in question and Faber's move from the Anglican ministry to the Romish Church.<BR/><BR/>http://www.joyfulministry.com/faithoft.htm<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148866380764394292006-05-28T20:33:00.000-05:002006-05-28T20:33:00.000-05:00A lot of thought-provoking comments, I see. Bro. F...A lot of thought-provoking comments, I see. Bro. Fountain, I was just thinking about "Faith of our Fathers" this morning, because I heard it sung. It was never in any of the song books that I grew up singing from. The words as found in most non-Catholic hymnals have no features I find objectionable (the verse about Mary is left out, and others may be altered, I'm not sure). But I must say that I've never quite thought of this song in the same way after I found out Faber's faith was Catholic and the persecution was of Catholics by the Anglicans. Perhaps this is one of those things where "ignorance is bliss" or "what we don't know won't hurt us". Everyone who knows not the history are singing along with wonderful thoughts of the faith of THEIR fathers, while some of the "enlightened" are troubled by thoughts of someone else's faith. Anyway, all that to ask, how far should we go with the idea of the writer's intention? Certainly in Faber's case, the writer's intention is not agreeable with many singers' intentions.<BR/><BR/>Concerning the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" -- I've heard different parts of it discussed as to scriptural or no, but I guess I'm just "too Southern" to care. I just don't like the song as a matter of principle!<BR/><BR/>Amity, for 'Huntington' in the Sacred Harp, make a comparison of Psalm 73, especially verses 22,3,6,17-20. Huntington's words are the first two verses of Isaac Watts paraphrase of those verses in Psalm 73, entitled "The prosperity of sinners cursed".R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148861486554588602006-05-28T19:11:00.000-05:002006-05-28T19:11:00.000-05:00Years back Baptist Churches either used the Canadi...Years back Baptist Churches either used the Canadian Baptist Hymnal or Sankey's Sacred Songs. Couldn't go far wrong with most of that music. In our Anglican Book of Common Prayer and Hymn Book, the selection is also quite good and sound in doctrine, albeit Anglican.<BR/><BR/>You add merit to what I said about selecting my own hymns for services where I preached.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148858274104813242006-05-28T18:17:00.000-05:002006-05-28T18:17:00.000-05:00What about this "in the beauty of the lilies Chris...What about this "in the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the see with a beauty in his bosom that trans figures you and me"or<BR/>Faith of Our Fathers...where non catholic took it whole into our song books and left off verse 4 where Mary is praised and said to be waiting to welcome England back into her bosom..The author was Catholic and the 3 verses we have in our books were refering to the persecution of the catholics by the English Anglicans. Not for Bapitsts.<BR/>Edwin FountainAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148828311502188862006-05-28T09:58:00.000-05:002006-05-28T09:58:00.000-05:00Yes Jim, you are right about Johnny Cash. He was a...Yes Jim, you are right about Johnny Cash. He was an inspiration to many. It seemed that people from all walks of life and music were drawn to him. It is believed that he was the first big name entertainer to share his faith in God on national television. This was on his variety show, The Johnny Cash show, which ran from 1969 to 1971 on ABC. He was my mother's favorite entertainer.<BR/><BR/>Neil Vaughtclinch64https://www.blogger.com/profile/02450008261295839386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148785506067404972006-05-27T22:05:00.000-05:002006-05-27T22:05:00.000-05:00Along these same lines, I think of the late entert...Along these same lines, I think of the late entertainer, Johnny Cash. It is no secret that he professed to be a twice-born believer.<BR/><BR/>I have heard a lot of criticism about his lifestyle in relation to living for Christ. How could he possibly be a Christian.<BR/><BR/>The way I looked at it was I know nothing about the paths he follows. All I know is what others have said. Other entertainers have testified that Johnny Cash was "there" in their darkest hours of booze, drugs and near-death experiences. They told how Johnnny Cash went out of his way to tell them about a better way; the Christian life. All I know is that he took time to talk about the Lord, and how the Lord lifted him in his darkest hour. <BR/><BR/>I kept hearing these little things that this Johnny Cash did in the name of the Lord, and not taking any credit whatever.<BR/><BR/>Who am I to decide that he was not being the instrument of the Lord to reach the unreachables of that industry?<BR/><BR/>It may not be the lifestyle that I fit together with a Spirit-filled life, but.........<BR/><BR/>What is that old saying, "don't criticize a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins..."<BR/><BR/>When I was teaching at the university, I took some students to the downtown area of the city. Sitting in the gutter was a man, clothed in the filthiest garments you could imagine. He was drunk as a skunk. I invited the students to go sit with the man and even put their arm around his shoulder. Some students held their nose, and some just plain said they couldn't do it.<BR/><BR/>We went back to the classroom and I posed the question; "If you couldn't show compassion for that poor drunken and filthy man, how on earth can you minister to the needy souls in your congregation?"<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148757889788610012006-05-27T14:24:00.000-05:002006-05-27T14:24:00.000-05:00Albert Brumley's point shows how high up on our sa...Albert Brumley's point shows how high up on our sanctimonious high horse we can often get when criticizing someone else.R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148737216781903112006-05-27T08:40:00.000-05:002006-05-27T08:40:00.000-05:00A very thought-provoking subject. A song that come...A very thought-provoking subject. A song that comes to me off the top of my head that generated criticism for being incorrect, had the lines, " I can almost hear the Father, as He says, Son go get your children" . <BR/><BR/>I am reminded of a humorous sort of story regarding secular vs religious. Albert E. Brumley took criticism by some for writing a few secular songs, when the majority were gospel. He told one of his detractors, " i promise to always write sacred songs from here on out, if you promise me that for the rest of your life, your conversation will only be about God and nothing else". That would be kind of hard to do. <BR/><BR/>Neil Vaughtclinch64https://www.blogger.com/profile/02450008261295839386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20166943.post-1148724480904196662006-05-27T05:08:00.000-05:002006-05-27T05:08:00.000-05:00All very good points, Robert. Sometimes we try to ...All very good points, Robert. Sometimes we try to think beyond intended meaning, and we lose the value of what has been said.<BR/><BR/>In all my ministry, I never allowed someone else to choose the hymns for the service. The hymns of choice were integrally part of the service, and tied in with the sermon.<BR/><BR/>A great deal of criticism is levelled at secular singers who happen to be Christian, rather than rejoice that they mention faith at all.<BR/><BR/>As we understand scripture by determining the intention of the speaker, so in hymns we ought to determine the writer's intention rather than theological accuracy.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com